News Should abortion be a woman's choice?

[master_coda]

Originally posted by Kerrie
it's not a potential life unless the sperm and egg join...then it's a miracle if that conjoined sperm/egg make it past 12 weeks term...

How is it not a potential life?

Given a sperm and an egg, a human can form. Joining doesn't magically make potential appear. If the potential is there after the joining, it was there before the joining.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by master_coda
Given a sperm and an egg, a human can form. Joining doesn't magically make potential appear. If the potential is there after the joining, it was there before the joining.

I guess its a matter of odds. But yeah, then you get a pretty subjective "potential."

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
if a woman is responsible enough to consent in having sex, then she or he is responsible enough to use some form of birth control, whether it be an oral contraceptive, or a condom (which is really the best)...sex education in america teaches this in nearly every school...if neither party is willing to take responsibility, then there is the option of adoption-i guarantee once a woman who is not ready to have a child does give one up for adoption she will be much more careful the next time around...

don't get me wrong, i am pro-choice, however, i think the majority of reasons for abortion are irresponsible...it teaches people-i can just dispose of it if i get pregnant...technology unfortunately is allowing people to easily fall back on this and this breeds irresponsible sex...

i think you zero are placing the sole responsibility of birth control on the woman, and this can get you men in trouble, men need to take responsibility just as much and that means carrying an extra condom (or two if he's really lucky)...

I don't buy your argument of punishing women for activities you don't agree with. Abortion on demand is the best choice for people too stupid to make any other choice.

And you know what? Yeah, it is a woman's responsibility; she's the one who could get stuck with the kid, after all.

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
I don't buy your argument of punishing women for activities you don't agree with. Abortion on demand is the best choice for people too stupid to make any other choice.

And you know what? Yeah, it is a woman's responsibility; she's the one who could get stuck with the kid, after all.

get stuck with the kid? you make it sound as if children are horrible beings...i tell you what's worse then getting "stuck with the kid", is the father who has to pay child support but doesn't get to see his child grow up...nowadays, parents who don't pay child support can land some serious jail time, have their taxes garnished and lose their licenses...all this while the mom has the benefit and joy of seeing her child grow and learn-it's very rewarding...child rearing isn't a punishment i assure you...it's a respsonsibility that can show you many things...

what did irresponsible women do 200 years ago when they were knocked up? abortion clinics did not exist back then therefore people had to deal with a real life situation...to me, abortion used as birth control only encourages more irresponsible sex because women think, "oh, if i get pregnant, i can just get an abortion"...of course abortion does not knock out the sexually transmitted diseases either-which is far worse and embarrassing in my opinion...

 

[skywise]

Originally posted by Kerrie
what did irresponsible women do 200 years ago when they were knocked up? abortion clinics did not exist back then

Abortion clinics may not have existed but women have been having abortions for thousands of years. Ever since they discovered that certain herbs triggered miscarriage.

Pennyroyal tea anyone?

 

[Zero]

As opposed to unwanted pregnancy motivating women to marry lousy guys, quit school and jobs, go on welfare, beat their kid and raising a person even more screwed up than they are...yeah, let's use unwanted children as punishment for irresponsible people.

 

[adrenaline]

Originally posted by russ_watters
Fair enough - I thought it was the opposite: it faked a woman's body into believing she was not pregnant, keeping her menstrating.

Both of you are correct, sort of, BCPs raise the serum levels of estrogen and progesterone in such a manner as to provide a negative feedback loop on follicle stimulatiing hormone and lutenizing hormone in our brain so as to prevent ovulation in the first place. Now the minipill, progesterone only, without the estrogen, probably works more by inhibitting the egg's ability to travel through the fallopian tubes by altering the cervical mucus and suppressing the sperm's ability to unite with an egg and inhibits implantation in the uterine wall.

Now the IUD (intrauterine device, a copper wire implanted in the uterus and left in place) probably does prevent implantation of a zygote at times, although it also prevents ovulation as well and more than likely, sperm fertilization. (I believe the copper is toxic to the sperm) They are still arguing about how it works exactly.

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
As opposed to unwanted pregnancy motivating women to marry lousy guys, quit school and jobs, go on welfare, beat their kid and raising a person even more screwed up than they are...yeah, let's use unwanted children as punishment for irresponsible people.

i assure you not all children are raised in this environment who were an "accident"...personally, i take offense to this as my first child was conceived as a so called accident, but she is healthy, bright, happy and beautiful...instead of having an abortion, i fessed up to my responsibility and it turned out to be a blessing...making this generalization is absurd, and it shows you are only out to win your argument for your ego's sake rather then being rational...for someone who is so against racism, i think you need to rethink your stand on generalizing people...just because a child is unplanned doesn't automatically mean they will have a horrible life, and there are many wanted children who may have a horrid life due to parents "sticking it out" to avoid divorce...

 

[Evo]

Originally posted by Kerrie
personally, i take offense to this as my first child was conceived as a so called accident, but she is healthy, bright, happy and beautiful...instead of having an abortion, i fessed up to my responsibility and it turned out to be a blessing...making this generalization is absurd, and it shows you are only out to win your argument for your ego's sake rather then being rational

I think the distinction here is "unwanted" as opposed to an "accident", "unexpected", "unplanned" etc... You hadn't "planned" to get pregnant and perhaps at first you didn't want to be, but then you made the decision that you "wanted" to have the baby. So your child was not "unwanted". It worked out well for you, and that's great. But for a lot of women, (and in a lot of cases, these aren't women, they are "children" getting pregnant), you cannot get on your soap box and proclaim that what worked for you is right for every other female.

When a woman has an "unwanted" child, that child will most likely be subject to one or more of the unfortunate circumstances cited by zero.

 

[Evo]

Originally posted by Kerrie
if a woman is responsible enough to consent in having sex, then she or he is responsible enough to use some form of birth control, whether it be an oral contraceptive, or a condom (which is really the best)

Contraception is not 100% effective, women can get pregnant if they are on the pill. Condoms have a rather high risk of pregnancy, they can tear, they can come off, etc... So even if you are "not" irresponsible, you can still get pregnant. Most teenagers do not even have access to contraceptives, but if you think sex among teens is going to stop if you ban abortion, think again.

 

[Dissident Dan]

The first time that I heard the "potential life" argument, I immediately knew it was crap. Someone already pointed out how you can continue that argument backwards. If you don't stop two people from having sex, a child may develop, and therefore absistence is stopping a potential life. Thus the religious right contradicts itself.


If you really want a decent place to draw the line, it is the line of consciousness and ability to feel. Of course, there is no exact point at which consciousness and ability to feel appear. They develop gradually. So, you draw the line somewhere before any recognizable ability to experience appears.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
i assure you not all children are raised in this environment who were an "accident"...personally, i take offense to this as my first child was conceived as a so called accident, but she is healthy, bright, happy and beautiful...instead of having an abortion, i fessed up to my responsibility and it turned out to be a blessing...making this generalization is absurd, and it shows you are only out to win your argument for your ego's sake rather then being rational...for someone who is so against racism, i think you need to rethink your stand on generalizing people...just because a child is unplanned doesn't automatically mean they will have a horrible life, and there are many wanted children who may have a horrid life due to parents "sticking it out" to avoid divorce...

That was only to refute YOUR argument that accidental pregancies are due to irresponsibility...but wasn't it nice that you had a choice of what to do?

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Evo
When a woman has an "unwanted" child, that child will most likely be subject to one or more of the unfortunate circumstances cited by zero. [/B]

if two people are consenting to sex, they should realize the risks of pregnancy...whether they use birth control or not...simple as that...if they don't want the risk, they shouldn't have the sex...people seem to forget that biologically, sex is meant for one thing-reproduction...the fun of it is what makes the process of reproduction enticing...

it seems that a lot of people forget this point, and get upset or are shocked if they become pregnant, but if you have the sex and end up expecting a child, you really can't be too surprised...

my point is in some states an abortion is too easy to get, thus egging on more irresponsible sex-which in turn helps spread more diseases...and the abortion hurts the woman emotionally more then she realizes prior to the procedure...i think abortion has it's place and purpose, but having easy access to it only allows for more irresponsible sex...

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
That was only to refute YOUR argument that accidental pregancies are due to irresponsibility...but wasn't it nice that you had a choice of what to do?

you have the greatest power and that power is to choose...if you choose to have sex, choose to accept the risks of pregnancy and deal with it responsibly...

 

[selfAdjoint]

Bah, prescribing morality for other people is tyranny, and a cop-out. Look to the plank in your own eye.

 

[Dissident Dan]

The argument, "Be prepared for pregnancy or don't have is sex" is a mantra that one adopts because they will accept whatever supports their side. If you truly believe that, then you should also believe, "Be prepared for death or don't get in a car."

 

[skywise]

I really don't like the argument that having access to abortion will just cause people to have more irresponsible sex due to the fact that they end up using abortion as a twisted form of birth control. I'd be willing to bet that a relatively miniscule amount of women behave like that. Every sane woman that I've met who had an abortion due to reckless sex agonized over the decision in the first place and continue to carry around so much guilt about it that they take every precaution to prevent it from happening again.

The women who take a lighthearted view of it and don't change their ways after the first one are generally pretty messed up and certainly don't need to be mothers. The adoption thing won't even really work for them since they certainly aren't going to quit the hard drugs for the duration of the pregnancy. How many people want to adopt children with severe drug induced birth defects?

selfAdjoint said,
Bah, prescribing morality for other people is tyranny..

It may seem radical but I have to agree.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
you have the greatest power and that power is to choose...if you choose to have sex, choose to accept the risks of pregnancy and deal with it responsibly...

Abortion CAN be the most responsible behavior a woman can engage in.

 

[Thufir]

I'll never understand why this is construed to be a moral issue. Homo Sapiens Sapiens is not endangered . There is no danger of a genetic bottleneck occurring due to any legalization of a woman's decision to terminate a pregnancy. If any individual in a population of self-aware beings feels for any reason that procreation and the responsibilities that such procreation brings with it are beyond his or her capabilities it is, in my opinion, better that an abortion take place. A human being requires a rather extensive upbringing before it can become a functioning member of the complex environment commonly known as "society". To override the biological process of procreation when it is disadvantagious is a natural phenomenon. It is normal for primates (we're primates folks) to reject offspring when subjected to adverse conditions. Substance dependancy, family problems, lack of income... the difference between the "modern" human condition and that of our ancestors is not significant. It might very well be that a disadvantagious situation is the result of poor decisions made by the would-be parent. So what!? Darwin is not "cosy-by-the-fireside-before-you-go-to-bed" reading. Terminating an unwanted, unsupportable, un-anything pregnancy is finally a wise decision. An evolutionary stable organism cuts it's losses.
Understand please that my statements are not meant to be an affront to any religeous beliefs. I call 'em as I see 'em.

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
Abortion CAN be the most responsible behavior a woman can engage in.

i agree absolutely, especially in the case of rape or if the child/mother is endangered...my biggest problem with abortion are those who have sex irresponsibly (ie: do not use any birth control) and then casually tell themselves it will be okay because they can have an abortion because it's so easy...

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by skywise
I'd be willing to bet that a relatively miniscule amount of women behave like that. Every sane woman that I've met who had an abortion due to reckless sex agonized over the decision in the first place and continue to carry around so much guilt about it that they take every precaution to prevent it from happening again.

The women who take a lighthearted view of it and don't change their ways after the first one are generally pretty messed up and certainly don't need to be mothers. The adoption thing won't even really work for them since they certainly aren't going to quit the hard drugs for the duration of the pregnancy. How many people want to adopt children with severe drug induced birth defects?

yes, i have known many women who severly agonize this dilema, thus why i am trying to express my opinion of those to be responsible...i have a very good friend in the exact predictament-and she's happily married but cannot support her expecting child because of a child she already has and cannot give him the life she wants...since she's my friend, i support her although i wish she would go through with it...she feels bad that she wasn't more responsible, but i assure you she will be much more careful due to the agony she is enduring...

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Kerrie
i agree absolutely, especially in the case of rape or if the child/mother is endangered...my biggest problem with abortion are those who have sex irresponsibly (ie: do not use any birth control) and then casually tell themselves it will be okay because they can have an abortion because it's so easy... it's easy for men to take the liberal stand on abortion, especially those who haven't had a child themselves...they don't realize the attachment to a child one iota...matter of fact, they are the furthest from that reality...till you experience for yourself, you really haven't experienced both sides of the debate...