Should taxes be utilized to modify behavior?

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    Behavior Taxes
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the use of taxes to modify consumer behavior, particularly focusing on tobacco taxation. Participants explore the implications of such taxes on purchasing decisions, healthcare costs, trade dynamics, and potential corruption, while questioning the motivations behind these taxes.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that tobacco taxes are arbitrary and vary significantly by state, questioning their effectiveness in reducing smoking rates.
  • Others suggest that while taxes may incentivize quitting, the actual purpose of these taxes and where the revenue goes remains unclear.
  • There is a viewpoint that taxing unhealthy behaviors could alleviate the financial burden on the healthcare system caused by such behaviors.
  • Some participants express concern that state-by-state tax differences lead to unfair advantages and do not effectively curb smoking, as consumers may travel to states with lower taxes.
  • One participant discusses the concept of price elasticity, noting that the demand for cigarettes is inelastic, meaning significant price changes are needed to impact consumer behavior.
  • Another perspective questions whether taxes are genuinely aimed at modifying behavior or simply serve as a revenue source for states, particularly targeting smokers as a politically convenient group.
  • Concerns about corruption are raised, with discussions on how high taxes may lead to black market alternatives and the complexities of tax compliance.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with no clear consensus on the effectiveness or ethical implications of using taxes to modify behavior. Disagreements persist regarding the motivations behind such taxes and their actual impact on consumer behavior and public health.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding the allocation of tax revenue and the varying impacts of state-level tax differences on consumer behavior. The discussion also reflects uncertainty regarding the definitions of terms like "unfair advantage" and "corruption" in the context of taxation.

  • #31
WhoWee said:
Given all of these assumptions - why isn't it reasonable to levy a tax that represents the actual cost related to the behavior - why not charge $135 per pack of cigarettes and save the taxpayers on the back end?
Oh yipee! Can we then charge tax on gasoline to pay for all traffic-accident related injuries and damage?
 
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  • #32
mheslep said:
Then he's in good company, as the phrase is originally from http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/1_ch15.htm" .

It was just a joke.
 
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  • #33
brainstorm said:
Oh yipee! Can we then charge tax on gasoline to pay for all traffic-accident related injuries and damage?

Would it eliminate lawyers from the equation - might be a good thing and cost less too?

A more serious answer is the costs of long term care for smoking-related illnesses can be measured with a level of certainty - traffic accidents might be less predictable - but historical data could be analyzed for trends.

As strange as these concepts (with regaards to cigarettes) sound - they might be effective in the long term?
 
  • #34
WhoWee said:
A more serious answer is the costs of long term care for smoking-related illnesses can be measured with a level of certainty - traffic accidents might be less predictable - but historical data could be analyzed for trends.
I am serious about the gas tax for traffic-related injuries and damage. You could say that not everyone who uses gasoline should be responsible for those who abuse it and cause accidents - but then why should everyone who buys cigarettes be responsible for those people who smoke at health-damaging levels? I think it's just part of the addictive nature of both that the more people do it, the more the risk of harm increases - and the amount they do it keeps increasing because of the nature of addiction. More driving allows more consumption, which creates more demand for more products and shipping, which creates more reason to drive around shopping, which increases traffic and thus the risk, number, and severity of accidents.
 
  • #35
brainstorm said:
I am serious about the gas tax for traffic-related injuries and damage. You could say that not everyone who uses gasoline should be responsible for those who abuse it and cause accidents - but then why should everyone who buys cigarettes be responsible for those people who smoke at health-damaging levels? I think it's just part of the addictive nature of both that the more people do it, the more the risk of harm increases - and the amount they do it keeps increasing because of the nature of addiction. More driving allows more consumption, which creates more demand for more products and shipping, which creates more reason to drive around shopping, which increases traffic and thus the risk, number, and severity of accidents.

I'm not sure what would be accomplished by discouraging people from driving - the cost of smoking and the benefits of not smoking are quite evident. Use of gasoline in and of itself is not addictive nor is an accident predictable.
 
  • #36
WhoWee said:
I'm not sure what would be accomplished by discouraging people from driving - the cost of smoking and the benefits of not smoking are quite evident. Use of gasoline in and of itself is not addictive nor is an accident predictable.

I think driving still has the popularity-legitimizing effect that smoking once did. If mobility culture was widely divided between driving and other forms of transit, driving could appear generally dangerous to those who were completely alienated from it. Think of how dangerous the cultures of weaponry we hear about in Iraq/Afganistan/etc. seem to people who are accustomed to only police carrying firearms. Many Europeans have a similar view of the US, as if the streets are filled with gun-carrying vigilantes ready to shoot at the slightest conflict. The question is not whether popular usage contributes to abuse and damage but whether responsible users of tobacco, cars, or guns should be penalized for the culture of abuse that evolves from their popularity. Is the cost to responsible users worth the benefit to those who are less responsible or simply victims of cultural pressures that arise from popularity.
 
  • #37
brainstorm said:
I think driving still has the popularity-legitimizing effect that smoking once did. If mobility culture was widely divided between driving and other forms of transit, driving could appear generally dangerous to those who were completely alienated from it. Think of how dangerous the cultures of weaponry we hear about in Iraq/Afganistan/etc. seem to people who are accustomed to only police carrying firearms. Many Europeans have a similar view of the US, as if the streets are filled with gun-carrying vigilantes ready to shoot at the slightest conflict. The question is not whether popular usage contributes to abuse and damage but whether responsible users of tobacco, cars, or guns should be penalized for the culture of abuse that evolves from their popularity. Is the cost to responsible users worth the benefit to those who are less responsible or simply victims of cultural pressures that arise from popularity.

I read an article yesterday about an electric car with approx. 800 hp and a top speed over 300 mph. Even if gasoline were obsolete - driving will (apparently) continue.
 
  • #40
WhoWee said:
I read an article yesterday about an electric car with approx. 800 hp and a top speed over 300 mph. Even if gasoline were obsolete - driving will (apparently) continue.
Well then maybe there should be a list of non-harmful modes of transit and shipping and those should be exempt from a general distance-travelled tax. Maybe these things shouldn't be done by taxation but by laws. Either way, it's unlikely that any kind of legal control of popular culture will ever be implemented until sufficient public support is garnered - and by that time lots of people have decided to self-govern anyway and any formal laws become just bullying of social-cultural minorities.
 
  • #41
brainstorm said:
Well then maybe there should be a list of non-harmful modes of transit and shipping and those should be exempt from a general distance-travelled tax. Maybe these things shouldn't be done by taxation but by laws. Either way, it's unlikely that any kind of legal control of popular culture will ever be implemented until sufficient public support is garnered - and by that time lots of people have decided to self-govern anyway and any formal laws become just bullying of social-cultural minorities.

How many of the accidents cited (in earlier posts) involved alcohol or illegal substances?