Show that the set of sets {An} has n elements

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around proving that the set of sets {An} defined recursively has n elements for each natural number n, as well as demonstrating that A_n is transitive. Participants explore the implications of the definitions and the induction process involved in the proof.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants define the sets recursively, starting with A_0 as the empty set and A_n+1 as A_n ∪ {A_n}.
  • Several participants suggest proving by induction that A_n has n elements, with a focus on establishing the base case and the inductive step.
  • There is a request for clarification on what it means for a set to have n elements, with some participants expressing uncertainty about the definition.
  • Some participants argue that the definition of having n elements should be formalized, while others suggest that a less formal approach may suffice for the original poster (OP).
  • A few participants note that the transitive property of the sets may be easier to prove if the definition of the sets is clarified.
  • There is a suggestion that in this specific case, induction might not be necessary if the definitions are correctly established.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the definition of what it means for a set to have n elements, and there are differing views on the necessity of formal definitions versus informal reasoning. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to proving the properties of the sets.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of clarity on the formal definition of counting elements in a set, as well as assumptions about what is required in the OP's class. The discussion also reflects varying levels of comfort with formal versus informal mathematical reasoning.

alejandro7
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We define by recursion the set of sets {An:n∈ℕ} this way:

A_0=∅
A_n+1=A_n ∪ {A_n}.

I want to prove by induction that for all n∈ℕ, the set A_n has n elements and that A_n is transitive (i.e. if x∈y∈A_n, then x∈A_n).

My thoughts:

for n=0, A_1 = ∅∪ {∅} = {∅}

then, for n+1: A_n+2 =A_n+1 ∪ {A_n+1}

I'm confused on how to proceed.
 
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Could you give the exact definition of what it means that a set has ##n##elements?

I feel it might be useful to prove by induction that

[tex]A_{n+1} = \{A_0,...,A_n\}[/tex]

Then proving transitivity is a lot easier.
 
For n=0, A_0=∅ has 0 elements.

Suppose A_n has n elements, prove A_n+1 has n+1 elements. Than you are done proving the number of elements. The transitive part is probably similar.
 
FactChecker said:
For n=0, A_0=∅ has 0 elements.

Suppose A_n has n elements, prove A_n+1 has n+1 elements. Than you are done proving the number of elements. The transitive part is probably similar.

Again, what do you mean with "a set has ##n## elements"?
 
micromass said:
Again, what do you mean with "a set has ##n## elements"?

I'm not sure I understand the question. I mean that the set is finite, countable and when you count the elements, there are n of them.
 
FactChecker said:
I'm not sure I understand the question. I mean that the set is finite, countable and when you count the elements, there are n of them.

Not really a formal definition though. But maybe the OP is happy with handwaving.
 
FactChecker said:
I'm not sure I understand the question. I mean that the set is finite, countable and when you count the elements, there are n of them.

Although, in this particular case, you might need also to justify that the elements are different from each other!
 
micromass said:
Not really a formal definition though. But maybe the OP is happy with handwaving.

I don't want to get into a discussion here over what counting with natural numbers means.
 
FactChecker said:
I don't want to get into a discussion here over what counting with natural numbers means.

Ok, good to know.

But maybe the OP needs to have such a discussion in order to correctly answer his question. It depends what his professor is happy with.
 
  • #10
micromass said:
Ok, good to know.

But maybe the OP needs to have such a discussion in order to correctly answer his question. It depends what his professor is happy with.

I am not trying to do his homework. I'm just trying to point out where he was missing the proof by induction because he was not using the fact that it is true for n in the proof of n+1. That seemed to be the original OP question. I don't know what is assumed or wanted in his class.
 
  • #11
FactChecker said:
I am not trying to do his homework. I'm just trying to point out where he was missing the proof by induction because he was not using the fact that it is true for n in the proof of n+1. That seemed to be the original OP question. I don't know what is assumed or wanted in his class.

In this very special case, induction is actually not needed if you define things the correct (and the usual) way.
 

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