Sign of Kretschmann Scalar in Kerr Metric

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of the Kretschmann scalar in the Kerr metric, particularly its sign changes associated with varying spin parameters. Participants explore the implications of these changes in relation to physical phenomena such as closed timelike curves and the geometry of rotating black holes. The conversation includes technical aspects, visualizations, and interpretations of curvature in the context of general relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the Kretschmann scalar for the Kerr solution changes sign for various values of the spin parameter, unlike the Schwarzschild case where it remains constant.
  • One participant suggests that the sign change may relate to the presence of closed timelike curves (CTCs) near the ring singularity in Kerr-Newman black holes.
  • Another participant expresses doubts about the relevance of certain mathematical results from a referenced paper, indicating a lack of clarity regarding the implications of the findings.
  • There are observations about the challenges of visualizing the curvature fluctuations and the behavior of the Kretschmann scalar near and inside the event horizon.
  • Participants share updates on their gnuplot visualizations, noting that curvature fluctuations extend outside the horizon and vary with spin, while also discussing the difficulties in interpreting the results.
  • One participant mentions the potential for observable effects related to the Kretschmann scalar in real astrophysical contexts, such as observations of Sagittarius A*.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of agreement and uncertainty regarding the implications of the Kretschmann scalar's behavior. While some propose connections to physical phenomena, others remain skeptical or unsure about the relevance of certain mathematical aspects. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the significance of the sign changes.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in their understanding of the mathematical implications and coordinate independence related to horizons and invariants. There are also references to specific properties of the Kerr-Newman geometry that may not be fully resolved in the discussion.

m4r35n357
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This question is motivated by one on stack exchange, and on this paper (which comes across a bit student-y but it claims to have been reviewed, and in any case I have reproduced its results in ctensor and gnuplot).

So: the KS (abbreviation!) conveys an overview of curvature at a given point in spacetime, which is nice, but whereas the KS for Schwarzschild has the same sign everywhere, that for the Kerr solution changes sign for various values of spin parameter (see diagrams in PDF). Does this change of sign relate to anything physical?
 
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This may have something to do with the prediction of closed timelike curves (which occur at [itex]g_{\phi \phi}=0[/itex]) near the ring singularity in Kerr-Newman black holes. From an old library entry-

Greg Bernhardt said:
In the uncharged Kerr geometry the CTC torus is entirely at negative radius, r<0 (i.e. within the ring singularity), but in the Kerr-Newman geometry the CTC torus extends to positive radius.

There is also the turnaround radius (that occurs at [itex]g_{t \phi}=0[/itex] where infall velocity becomes zero and counter-rotation occurs) which also extends to positive r in the Kerr-Newman metric.

This paper looks at it in some detail-
A twist in the geometry of rotating black holes: seeking the cause of acausality
http://arxiv.org/abs/0708.2324v2

Link to old library entry-
What are closed timelike curves?
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/what-are-closed-timelike-curves.762983/

This paper also mentions these properties-
http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/phys5770_08/bh.pdf page 35 (fig. 7) and section 3.14.9
 
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stevebd1 said:
This may have something to do with the prediction of closed timelike curves (which occur at [itex]g_{\phi \phi}=0[/itex]) near the ring singularity in Kerr-Newman black holes. From an old library entry-

Unfortunately I don't have the mathematical chops to tell if that stuff is relevant, but I have doubts. The paper looks at slow-spinning charged black holes in the equatorial plane (I am neglecting charge, and am looking at up to "maximum" spin in the whole r-theta plane).

Strangely, this is actually quite tough to plot and interpret; see gnuplot file attached if anyone wants to try it themselves [update: you will need to change the file extension to .gp]. I suspect that the changes in sign are occurring around or within the horizon, but I'm currently trying to understand precisely where and when coordinate independence applies wrt horizons and invariants.
 

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This is a great question. Looking forward to seeing any answers. The material on physics.SE seems to be of low quality.
 
Latest gnuplot file, small improvements in visualization.

I've plotted something that I think is reasonable now, and it would appear that the plus and minus curvature fluctuations do extend substantially outside the horizon, more so as the spin (a) increases. In fact it is simple to set a = 0.0 and observe the curvature outside the horizon for a Schwartzschild black hole . . . this also settles the overall sign issue.

Probing inside is tricky ATM because the scalar blows up to rather high values, so the contour plots show adjacent regions of positive and negative curvature coming in from the outside, as it were, but on the inside there are abutments of positive and negative curvature that just don't fit on the plot. I think I need to look at clamping the z values . . . [EDIT: now done, looks very nice!]

Anyway, if anyone finds any errors (all equations are in the file) please let me know here.
 

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m4r35n357 said:
Latest gnuplot file, small improvements in visualization.
Please excuse the bump, but I've found a sweet spot with the visualization (clamping was the answer!). Vary a between 0.0 and 1.0 and rotate the plot to see a huge richness of behaviour, including some effects which might even be detectable outside the event horizon. Do it again after "set view map" to see the contours alone. If nothing else this is a cute little "signature" for a given value of spin in the Kerr Spacetime.

Now we wait to see if real observations of Sag A* correlate in any way with the Kretschmann scalar!
 

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bcrowell said:
This is a great question. Looking forward to seeing any answers. The material on physics.SE seems to be of low quality.

Just stumbled across this paper, looks interesting, but complicated. I'll take what I can from it!
[EDIT] Those diagrams at the end look familiar ;) Also the authors appear a little, er, dismissive of poor Mr Henry (the author of the paper in my OP).
 
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