Sign of potential term in Lagrangian mechanics

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SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the implications of choosing the zero point for potential energy in Lagrangian mechanics, specifically in the context of gravitational potential energy (GPE) and atomic systems. The key conclusion is that while one can add a constant to potential energy, one cannot multiply it by a constant, including changing its sign. This distinction is crucial as it affects the equations of motion derived from the Lagrangian, which is defined as L=T-V. The discussion highlights that potential energy must be treated consistently to maintain the integrity of the equations of motion.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of Lagrangian mechanics and the formulation L=T-V
  • Familiarity with gravitational potential energy (GPE) and its conventions
  • Basic knowledge of equations of motion in classical mechanics
  • Concept of constants in potential energy functions
NEXT STEPS
  • Study the derivation of equations of motion from the Lagrangian framework
  • Explore the implications of different potential energy conventions in classical mechanics
  • Learn about the role of constants in potential energy calculations
  • Investigate the relationship between gravitational potential energy and height in the context of Lagrangian mechanics
USEFUL FOR

Students and professionals in physics, particularly those focusing on classical mechanics, Lagrangian dynamics, and gravitational systems. This discussion is beneficial for anyone looking to deepen their understanding of potential energy and its impact on motion equations.

Admiralibr123
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I have heard many times that it does not matter where you put the zero to calculate the potential energy and then ##L=T-V##. But mostly what we are doing is taking potential energy negative like in an atom for electron or a mass in gravitational field and then effectively adding it to kinetic energy. What if I take zero at the centre of atom and on the surface of earth, write ##V## positive and subtract if in lagrangian. I try that and EOM is different something like $$F=ma=-mg$$ for a free fall object. If I change it for a charge an electron in atom something similar happens.

Please someone explain, does $$F=-mg \quad \textrm{vs} \quad F=+mg$$ not matter? This is just a single term but if the EOM have multiple terms, this sign would surely make a difference. And in essence to me, it feels like it voids the negative sign in ##L=T-V##, if we can choose any sign for V. That must definitely not be the case, so where am I wrong in my reasoning?
 
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Calculate the equations of motion for T - V and T - V + a constant. Any difference?
 
You seem to have the mistaken idea that the arbitrariness of the zero means you can flip the sign of the potential. That is a mistake.

You can add a constant to the potential, you cannot multiply it by a constant. That includes multiplying it by -1
 
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Admiralibr123 said:
That must definitely not be the case, so where am I wrong in my reasoning?
For GPE you have two conventions. If the object remains close to the surface, then you can write: $$V = mgh$$ where ##h## is the height above the surface.

And, in the general case we write $$V = -\frac{GMm}{r}$$.
The critical point, however, is that in both cases ##V## increases as ##r## or ##h## increases.

As a useful exercise, you could show that for ##r = R + h##, where ##h << R## we have:
$$V = -\frac{GMm}{r} = -\frac{GMm}{R + h} \approx V_0 + mgh$$ where ##V_0## is constant. This shows that the two conventions are approximately equivalent up to a constant term (in the case where the object remains close to the surface).
 
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