I Simultaneity: Train and Lightning Thought Experiment

  • #51
Ziang said:
I found the thought experiment here http://www.bartleby.com/173/9.html
and Einstein concluded:" Events which are simultaneous with reference to the embankment are not simultaneous with respect to the train, and vice versa (relativity of simultaneity)."

Now let me place a long seesaw on the embankment and parallel with the railway. This seesaw is working. I mean its both ends A & B are moving up and down continuously.
Let us consider two events: A is at high position and B is at low position. According to the relativity of simultaneity, these two events are simultaneous with reference to the embankment but are not simultaneous with respect to the train. Hence, the woman on the train claims that the seesaw is not straight up but it is curved up and down on its both ends A & B continuously. The lady questions why the seesaw is not broken?

It's also a question of by how much the seesaw is out of sync. In the frame of the train, clocks at either end of the seesaw will be out of sync by ##\frac{Lv}{c^2}##, where ##L## is the rest length of the seesaw and ##v## is the speed of the train. The train must be traveling at less than ##c##, so an upper limit on this is ##\frac{L}{c}##.

Now, for a seesaw of even ##100m##, say, this is a very small time difference, less than a micro-second. The woman on the train will still measure the seesaw as being essentially in sync and observe nothing unusual.

Note that the seesaw will be curved in the platform frame as well, due to the forces along its length.
 
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  • #52
Ibix said:
An important point to bear in mind, which I forgot to mention above, is that the seesaw is not straight even in the embankment frame. When one end strikes the ground a mechanical wave propagates up the beam at the speed of sound in the material and the other end doesn't stop rising until that wave reaches it. That's typically on a timescale of milliseconds, which is why you don't notice, but it's always going to be flexing.

We don't have to use a seesaw moving up and down. Let us use a horizontal seesaw that its two ends move closer and farther from the railway. I mean the horizontal seesaw rotates freely an small angle during the experiment.
 
  • #53
PeroK said:
Note that the seesaw will be curved in the platform frame as well, due to the forces along its length.

You can imagine a horizontal seesaw. And the seesaw rotates an angle freely during the experiment.
 
  • #54
Ziang said:
I found the thought experiment here http://www.bartleby.com/173/9.html
and Einstein concluded:" Events which are simultaneous with reference to the embankment are not simultaneous with respect to the train, and vice versa (relativity of simultaneity)."

Now let me place a long seesaw on the embankment and parallel with the railway. This seesaw is working. I mean its both ends A & B are moving up and down continuously.
Let us consider two events: A is at high position and B is at low position. According to the relativity of simultaneity, these two events are simultaneous with reference to the embankment but are not simultaneous with respect to the train. Hence, the woman on the train claims that the seesaw is not straight up but it is curved up and down on its both ends A & B continuously. The lady questions why the seesaw is not broken?

I would tend to believe the conclusion that the see-saw is curved, as "rigid objects" simply aren't compatible with special relativity. One can define Born-rigid motions in special relativity, but objects satisfying the necessary criterion to be Born-rigid can't change their state of rotation. Your see-saw is changing it's state of rotation, so it can't be Born-rigid.

You may not be familiar with Born rigidity. I don't see how you can learn about it before you learn about the relativity of simultaneity, though. So the process of learning special relativity involves first realizing that simultaneity is relative, then exploring all the logical consequences of this fact (along with the other aspects of SR such as length contraction and time dilation, though the relativity of simultaneity seems to be the hardest thing for people to learn). The lack of rigid objects is one of the logical consequences of special relativity, I'm unsure if it can be formally deduced solely from the relativity of simultaneity however.

I don't think your exposition isn't quite complete, a drawing of the seesaw from the perspective of the ground and from the train using the Lorentz transform would be interesting. I believe your conclusion is probably right, but the argument isn't quite rock solid yet.
 
  • #55
Ziang said:
We don't have to use a seesaw moving up and down. Let us use a horizontal seesaw that its two ends move closer and farther from the railway. I mean the horizontal seesaw rotates freely an small angle during the experiment.
This doesn't change anything about any of the arguments already made. For the seesaw to swing back and forth on any axis, some force must be applied to it at some point, and that force cannot propagate through the seesaw faster than c.
 
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  • #56
Janus said:
This doesn't change anything about any of the arguments already made. For the seesaw to swing back and forth on any axis, some force must be applied to it at some point, and that force cannot propagate through the seesaw faster than c.
Let me say the seesaw is rotating at a constant angular speed (like the Earth is spinning).
At the time point that the train is passing it, it is parallel with the railway (and is still rotating)
 
  • #57
Ziang said:
Let me say the seesaw is rotating at a constant angular speed (like the Earth is spinning).
At the time point that the train is passing it, it is parallel with the railway (and is still rotating)
The seesaw will not appear straight. Also its length will vary as it rotates. You may wish to Google for "relativistic wheel" and look at the shapes of the spokes.
 
  • #58
To build on Ibix's point, Let's consider the following two illustrations:
train_rod.png

On the left we have our rotating pole (light blue bar), The tracks (black and brown lines), the train( green line) and our observers on the embankment and on the train (red circles), according to the embankment frame. This is the moment the observers pass each other. The pole is parallel to the tracks, and its ends line up with both the end of the train and particular points on the track (the white lines). The pole is rotating counter-clockwise as shown by the blue arrows.

One thing needs to be noted in this image, the train, since it is moving relative to this frame is length contracted. In other words, the length of the train as measured in this frame is shorter than the length of the train as measured in its own frame.

This becomes apparent when we look at the right image, which is drawn from the frame of the train. We are still dealing with the moment the two observers pass each other. In this frame the train measures its length as its proper length, while it measures the tracks and embankment, which is moving relative to it as being length contracted. As a result, the train no longer fits neatly between the white lines, but extends quite a bit beyond is both directions. This also means that one end ( the right end in this case) has already passed its white line before the other end hasn't reached its white line yet.

Also note that the bar appears as being curved, as per Ibex's post, and the right end of the pole has already gone past the point where it is adjacent to the tracks, while the left end has not yet reached that point. If this were an animation that we could run backwards and forwards, you would see the ends of the train lining up with a white line at the same moment that an end of the rod was adjacent to the same spot. This just happens at different times for each white line. Another thing to note here is that as the rod rotates in this frame, the curvature of the rod does not remain constant but changes from being curved as shown here to being straight when aligned vertically.
 

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  • #59
Ibix said:
The seesaw will not appear straight.
That is what I said: "the woman on the train claims that the seesaw is not straight up but it is curved up and down on its both ends A & B continuously. The lady questions why the seesaw is not broken?"
 
  • #60
Ziang said:
That is what I said: "the woman on the train claims that the seesaw is not straight up but it is curved up and down on its both ends A & B continuously. The lady questions why the seesaw is not broken?"
Just because the See-saw is curved in her frame does not mean that it is under stress in her frame.
In the following image we see the same diamond shape, in both its rest frame and according to a frame in which it is moving at 0.8c.
In the top image all the corner angles are 90 degrees, in the bottom image, one pair of corners is more than 90 degrees and the other pair is less than 90 degrees. But this does not mean that the shape is under some type of stress at the corner. Even if the shape was rotating, and thus constantly changing shape in the bottom frame, it would not be undergoing any stress.

squares.png
 

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  • #61
Ibix said:
Rotating objects generally look rather odd in relativity

Yes, but this is not about how the seesaw appears, it's about its shape. Observations differ in different frames. The shape of the seesaw is one such observation.
 
  • #62
Ziang said:
The lady questions why the seesaw is not broken?

Because in its rest frame it's not bent (enough for it to break).
 
  • #63
Ziang said:
That is what I said: "the woman on the train claims that the seesaw is not straight up but it is curved up and down on its both ends A & B continuously. The lady questions why the seesaw is not broken?"
That's what a freely rotating beam looks like when viewed from a moving frame. It can't be straight - as you've already observed the relativity of simultaneity shows that immediately. Any other maths you do will support this. For example you can transform the centripetal force to show that it's not centripetal in the moving frame, and its direction depends on the radius, which is consistent with a curved beam. Or you can draw a 2+1 dimensional Minkowski diagram and consider the intersection of a sloped simultaneity plane with the helical worldtube of the spinning beam.

The question is, why do you think it ought to be straight? The short answer is that you are trying to use common sense in an extremely uncommon situation. That doesn't work well.
 
  • #64
Janus said:
Just because the See-saw is curved in her frame does not mean that it is under stress in her frame.

The laws of physics are invariant in all inertial frames.
If the seesaw gets stress when it gets curved in one inertial frames then it would get stress when it gets curved in all inertial frames.
 
  • #65
Ziang said:
The laws of physics are invariant in all inertial frames.
If the seesaw gets stress when it gets curved in one inertial frames then it would get stress when it gets curved in all inertial frames.

The laws of physics are invariant in all inertial frames. However, "being curved", which I interpret as a statement about the purely spatial geometry of the object, is a frame dependent statement, due to the relativity of simultaneity. If parts of an object have a non-zero proper acceleration - such as a rotating stick, the see-saw, or an accelerating elevator - the spatial projection of the object may be flat in some frames of reference and "curved" in other frames of reference.

Note that if an object is not accelrating, if all parts of the object have a zero proper acceleration, then the property of "being flat" does turn out to be independent of the chocie of frame, as the Lorentz transformation is linear, and linear functions map straight lines to straight lines.

However, the worldline of an accelerating point is not a straight line, so this argument does not apply.
 
  • #66
Ziang said:
The laws of physics are invariant in all inertial frames.
If the seesaw gets stress when it gets curved in one inertial frames then it would get stress when it gets curved in all inertial frames.

Okay. And if the stress is not enough to break it in one frame, then it doesn't break in all frames. It will be bent by different amounts in different frames, though.
 
  • #67
The way I would put the stress situation is that the stress-energy tensor is a rank 2 tensor, and transforms as such. I do have some questions on the relationship between the physicists usage of the stress energy tensor, which I'm familiar with, and engineering usage, which I'm not familiar with and which may be slightly different.

I'm tempted to say that if the stress-energy tensor is zero in one frame, it's zero in all frames. While this is a correct statement, it's misleading, because the energy part of the stress-energy tensor isn't zero if one has matter present. So in the cases under consideration, one would actually need to carry out the appropriate transformations to figure out how it transforms.

The ability to handle rank 2 tensors and their transformations comes well after one learns introductory special relativity, however. If one doesn't learn the basics of SR, one will never get this far.
 
  • #68
I did work out the shape of a rotating bar in a moving reference frame via the Lorentz transform. This is simpler than the see-saw case to analyze, but one can gain some insight of the see-saw case from the rotating bar case.

It's convenient to write the coordinate of any point on the bar as a function of r, which we set to zero at the origin of the bar (the origin being the point on the bar with zero proper acceleration). We will call the inertial frame of reference in which the origin of the bar is at rest "the rest frame of the bar", even though only the origin of the bar is at rest in this frame. r is a parameter that picks out a specific point on the bar. We also need a time coordinate, which we will take as the proper time ##\tau## of the point we just specified by specifying r. We will let the angular frequency of the rotation be ##\omega## in the bar's rest frame. Then in the bar's rest frame, we write:

$$x = r \cos \frac{\omega \tau}{\sqrt{1-r^2\omega^2}} \quad y = r \sin \frac{\omega \tau}{\sqrt{1-r^2\omega^2}} \quad t = \frac{\tau}{\sqrt{1-r^2\omega^2}}$$

Applying the Lorentz transform, we can transform these coordinates to a moving frame. Let the velocity be determined by the dimensionless parameter ##\beta##, so that v = \beta c. And let ##\gamma = 1/\sqrt{1-\beta^2}##. Then we can find the position of a point on the bar in a moving frame with coordinates x1, y1, t1 via the Lorentz transform.

$$x1 = \gamma \left(x + \beta\,c\,t \right) \quad y1=y \quad t1 = \gamma \left( t +\beta x/c \right) $$

We can substitute the expressions for ##x(r,\tau)##, ##y(r,\tau)##, and ##t(r,\tau)## from the first set of equations into the second to find ##x1(r, \tau), y1(r,\tau), t1(r,\tau)##. It's also convenient to set c=1 at this point, unless one really wants to keep tract of it (I did not).

We now wish to find and plot x1 and y1 as a function of t1, rather than as a function of ##\tau##. To do this, we need to solve the equation

$$
t1 = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\beta^2}} \left( {\frac {\tau}{\sqrt {1-{r}^{2}{\omega}^{2}}}}+\frac{\beta}{c}\,r\cos
\left( {\frac {\omega\,\tau}{\sqrt {1-{r}^{2}{\omega}^{2}}}} \right)
\right)$$

for ##\tau## as a function of r and t1. This is not something that has a closed form solution. We will call this ##\tau = f^{-1}(r, t1)##

Then we can write the coordinates x1 and y1 of the bar at time t1 as a function of r, where I have now omitted the factors of c:

$$ x1 =
\left( r\cos \left( {\frac {\omega\,f^{-1}}{\sqrt {1-{r}^{2}{\omega}^{2}}}} \right) +{\frac {\beta\,f^{-1}}{\sqrt {1-{r}^{2}{\omega}^{2}}}} \right) {
\frac {1}{\sqrt {1-{\beta}^{2}}}}$$

$$ y1=r\sin \left( {\frac {\omega\,f^{-1}}{\sqrt {1-{r}^{2}{\omega}^{2}}}} \right) $$

This would be quite messy to carry out by hand - I used a computer algebra package to do the algebraic manipulations and to do some graphs for ##\beta = .9## and ##\omega = .5## with r varying from 0 to 1. While I don't have a convenient way of posting the results, I can say that the bar is generally not straight (there's an exception when it's vertical), that one can see the effects of time dilation (the bar rotates more slowly), and that the bar is length contracted as well as bent when it's not vertical.

As I mentioned in a previous post, this is more or less to be expected. While the Lorentz transformation is a linear transformation and must map straight lines into straight lines, the worldlines of points on the bar (a fixed value of r as ##\tau## varies) are not straight lines for r>0. So we don't expect the bar to be straight, and we don't expect the bar to have a constant length, and the calculations demonstrate this.

I like this approach because a) I'm used to it, and b) the coordinates r and ##\tau## have physical significance, being the proper distance of a point on the bar from the origin in the former case, and being the proper time of a point on the bar in the later case. Both the proper distance and the proper times are independent of any coordinate choices, so it's a convenient representation of the spinning bar.
 
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  • #69
Nice analysis @pervect

Suppose the bar is made of some delicate material such as glass so that a very small bend will cause it to break. What the OP is asking about, I believe, is why it doesn't break when it bends in the moving frame. This is just one of those things that's part of special relativity, like time dilation and length contraction. It's like asking how, when a moving rod is Lorentz-contracted, it can withstand the compression without breaking. Relativity contradicts common sense in many ways, and this is just one of those ways. Understanding them expands common sense.
 
  • #70
This might be another way to look at it.

In the rest frame of its centre of mass it's straight, and rotated at each subsequent time. So a rotating rod can be viewed as a helical worldsheet. This can be illustrated with a (2+1)d Minkowski diagram - I've drawn one below. One spatial plane of the rest frame is marked as a blue plane (time is perpendicular to this), and naturally the intersection of the green helical worldsheet and the plane is a straight line. So the rod is straight in this frame.
restframe.png


But what happens in a moving frame? In a moving frame, the spatial plane is tilted compared to the one drawn above. That looks like this:
movingframe.png

Now you can clearly see that the intersection of the helix and the plane is a curve. That's why the rod is curved in this frame (although as @pervect notes, there's a special case when the rod is "across" the slope where it'll be straight). You can also see immediately that I've changed nothing about the rod by changing the frame. So it can't be broken; it's just the intuitive notion that "if it isn't straight it ought to be broken" that doesn't work properly.
 

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  • #71
pervect said:
in the bar's rest frame

Is this the rest frame of the bar's center of mass (but non-rotating), or a (rotating) frame in which the bar as a whole is at rest? It looks like the former, since you have coordinates varying with time. But I think clarity would be helpful.
 
  • #72
PeterDonis said:
Is this the rest frame of the bar's center of mass (but non-rotating), or a (rotating) frame in which the bar as a whole is at rest? It looks like the former, since you have coordinates varying with time. But I think clarity would be helpful.

WIth my setup, it's the frame in which the bar's origin is at rest. The origin is defined as the point on the bar with zero proper acceleration. Points not at the origin will have a non-zero proper acceleration. I'd rather avoid the center of mass, I seem to recall there are potential issues with it's frame dependence in SR, though I'm hazy on the details.

I've slightly ammended my original post to clarify this point.
 
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  • #73
Ibix said:
This can be illustrated with a (2+1)d Minkowski diagram

Great visuals, Ibix!
The 2D straight and 2D curved rod are only different 2D measurements/observations of one and the same 3D helix.:thumbup:
 
  • #74
Peter Martin said:
The problem is in the description of the situation, which states that the lightning strikes are "simultaneous" without stating that the simultaneity is from the man's (bystander's) point of view. Let's re-describe the problem from the woman's (passenger's) point of view.

A woman sits at the middle of a train. Out the window she sees the countryside - which includes a man standing watching the train - rushing by in the direction of the rear of the train. Suddenly she sees lightning strike the front and rear cars of the train simultaneously. The question is: What does the man see?

Since he is rushing toward the rear of the train, he sees the lightning strike the rear car first because, as the light travels toward him, he is traveling toward the source of the light. By the same token, he is moving away from the strike on the front car so it takes longer for the light to reach him.

Since we typically spend more time on the landscape than on trains, we naturally take the man's point of view when describing this apparent paradox. So as soon as you read the (biased) description you are already on the "wrong track".

The answer can be explained without any reference to Special Relativity, Einstein, or inertial reference frames. Ask: How could the two lightning strikes occur so that the woman on the train sees them as simultaneous? We can assume a conventional view of reality: that the landscape is "at rest" and the train is "in motion".

Since the flash from the rear strike must travel a longer distance to reach the woman, due to her "forward motion", it must occur before the front strike. Well, that is exactly what the man sees when the woman sees the strikes as simultaneous. So this explanation makes perfect sense even with the conventional view that the landscape is "at rest" and the train is "moving".

No need for Einstein!
 
  • #75
Peter Martin said:
The answer can be explained without any reference to Special Relativity, Einstein, or inertial reference frames. Ask: How could the two lightning strikes occur so that the woman on the train sees them as simultaneous? We can assume a conventional view of reality: that the landscape is "at rest" and the train is "in motion"
A "view of reality" in the sense you are using it here is a reference frame - in this case, the rest frame of the landscape.

Peter Martin said:
Since the flash from the rear strike must travel a longer distance to reach the woman, due to her "forward motion", it must occur before the front strike. Well, that is exactly what the man sees when the woman sees the strikes as simultaneous. So this explanation makes perfect sense even with the conventional view that the landscape is "at rest" and the train is "moving".
That explanation works fine in the landscape frame. But what is the explanation in the train frame? If you formulate a coherent answer to this, you will find that you have developed special relativity.
 
  • #76
Peter Martin said:
No need for Einstein!
Except that we needed Einstein to point this out to us in the first place... :smile:

And seriously, kidding aside... Einstein introduced the relativity of simultaneity using pretty much this explanation - no relativity, just the assumption of constant light speed. Was he the first to make this argument?
 
  • #77
Peter Martin said:
The answer can be explained without any reference to Special Relativity,

Without special relativity the two people observe the light beams moving at different speeds, and they both agree that the strikes were simultaneous. As soon as you claim the speed of light is the same for both observers you get the relativity of simultaneity, and you have something that's part of special relativity. Without special relativity you don't have an invariant speed and you therefore don't have relative simultaneity.
 
  • #78
Peter Martin said:
The answer can be explained without any reference to Special Relativity, Einstein, or inertial reference frames. Ask: How could the two lightning strikes occur so that the woman on the train sees them as simultaneous? We can assume a conventional view of reality: that the landscape is "at rest" and the train is "in motion".

Where special relativity comes into play is assuming that the speed of light is constant for all observers. Without this assumption, one could come to different conclusions.

If one assumes the speed of light is constant for all observers, though, the relativity of simultaneity is a necessary consequence of this assumption.
 
  • #79
Mister T said:
As soon as you claim the speed of light is the same for both observers you get the relativity of simultaneity,

The speed of light is constant <=> Time and space are relative.
is what you mean, right?
 
  • #80
Ziang said:
The speed of light is constant <=> Time and space are relative.
is what you mean, right?

No. Simultaneity is relatve because the speed of light is invariant. That is part of special relativity. Remove special relativity and you remove relative simultaneity.

My point is that you need special relativity to get relative simultaneity.
 
  • #81
"The speed of light in vacuum is constant"
Could we say this statement is a law?
 
  • #82
Ziang said:
"The speed of light in vacuum is constant"
Could we say this statement is a law?
We could, but saying that doesn't tell us much of anything that we don't already know.

It's an assumption ("postulate" in the common English-language translation of Einstein's 1905 paper) that goes into deriving the theory of relativity. We make this assumption because it is supported by mountains of experimental evidence that tell us that the universe really does work that way.
 
  • #83
pervect said:
If one assumes the speed of light is constant for all observers, though, the relativity of simultaneity is a necessary consequence of this assumption.
So if the speed of light in a vacuum is constant then there is no chance (0.00%) for absolute time and space exist?
 
  • #84
Ziang said:
So if the speed of light in a vacuum is constant
Invariant, rather than constant.
Ziang said:
there is no chance (0.00%) for absolute time and space exist?
Probability isn't the right tool for this. Special relativity is a consequence of the principle of relativity and a finite invariant speed, the speed at which light travels. Given those assumptions, plus homogeneity and isotropy, something with identical maths to special relativity is inescapable.

Whether that means there is no absolute space and time is a matter of interpretation. Lorentz Ether Theory is simply special relativity with the assumption that there is one genuine, but undetectable, rest frame; treating something that moves in this frame as stationary is (in some sense) wrong. But there are no consequences to being wrong, and it's not immediately obvious why everything would be set up to hide the chosen frame so effectively. So since this theory contains an extra assumption (the chosen frame) and offers no advantages, it's largely ignored.
 
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  • #85
Is it ok to say that the viewpoint of absolute space and time has been proved wrong with the Einstein's train?
 
  • #86
Ziang said:
Is it ok to say that the viewpoint of absolute space and time has been proved wrong with the Einstein's train?
It would be easier to answer that question if you could provide a precise definition of what you mean by "absolute time and space".
 
  • #87
Nugatory said:
It would be easier to answer that question if you could provide a precise definition of what you mean by "absolute time and space".
When I say absolute time, I mean the flow rate of time is constant to everyone in anywhere. There is no time dilation.
When I say absolute space, I mean the space which is not affected by a mass or a moving frame. There is no length contraction, no curvature.

Is it ok to say that the absolute space and time has been disproved by Einstein's conceptual experiment the train and lightning?
Is it ok to say that the viewpoint of relative space and time is true, no way for any space and time else?
 
  • #88
Ziang said:
When I say absolute time, I mean the flow rate of time is constant to everyone in anywhere. There is no time dilation.
When I say absolute space, I mean the space which is not affected by a mass or a moving frame. There is no length contraction, no curvature.

Is it ok to say that the absolute space and time has been disproved by Einstein's conceptual experiment the train and lightning?
Is it ok to say that the viewpoint of relative space and time is true, no way for any space and time else?
Surely which is correct, Minkwoskian or Gallilean space-time geometry, must be decided by observation and experiment.
So far relativity has never conflicted with these.
 
  • #89
Ziang said:
Is it ok to say that the viewpoint of absolute space and time has been proved wrong with the Einstein's train?

Ziang said:
When I say absolute time, I mean the flow rate of time is constant to everyone in anywhere.There is no time dilation.

Depends on what you mean by "prove". Usually these things are decided by a preponderance of the evidence. In this case there have been so many cases in which time dilation has been demonstrated that it's essentially a proven fact. Einstein's thought experiment with the train didn't convince the vast majority of physicists at the time. But the demonstrations I speak of are not thought experiments. They are actual experiments.And observations. And as it turns out, they are explained by Einstein. His thought experiments were just a tool used by him to aid in his explanations. He got it right.

When I say absolute space, I mean the space which is not affected by a mass or a moving frame. There is no length contraction, no curvature.

Similar comments apply here. We now know that Einstein got it right. Look, for example, at the stuff written by Clifford M. Will. Just do a google search. He wrote a lot about this topic. His discussion of the radar ranging of Venus, for example, I found particularly illuminating.

Einstein didn't disprove absolute time and space. He showed us how to disprove it.
 
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  • #90
Mister T said:
Einstein's thought experiment with the train didn't convince the vast majority of physicists at the time.
May you tell me why not? Did they have any logic counter-arguments or thought experiments that were against Einstein's train?
 
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  • #91
Ziang said:
May you tell me why not? Did they have any logic counter-arguments or thought experiments that were against Einstein's train?
They didn't have any problem with the validity of the argument, but did with its soundness.

For example, the following is a perfectly valid logical argument.

All swans are white.
My pet bird is a swan
Therefore, my pet bird is white.
The conclusion directly follows from the premises.

However, it not a sound logical argument, because one of the premises is false. Not all swans are white.

Many physicists of the time felt that there must have been a problem with Einstein's postulates. You have to keep in mind that Newtonian Physics had been the undisputed champion for a long time, and Einstein was saying that it was wrong. This was a hard pill to swallow. Until a definitive real-life observation or experiment could be performed to test Einstein's theory, it was an untested theory and could be ultimately wrong.
 
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  • #92
Ziang said:
May you tell me why not?

The experimental evidence available at the time wasn't enough. There are always competing explanations, and many times all of them make perfect sense. But only those explanations that match what we observe are the ones we deem "correct".

Did they have any logic counter-arguments or thought experiments that were against Einstein's train?

Lorentz ether theory. But it maintains that there is a special reference frame. When the experimental evidence showed that this special frame (in which this thing called the ether was at rest) was undetectable, it became difficult to believe it existed. And while this was going on the experimental evidence in support of Einstein's explanation kept growing. A century later there is just no reasonable way to believe in any explanation other than Einstein's.
 
  • #93
taenyfan said:
I am puzzled over einstein's thought experiment on simultaneity.

In this experiment, a man is standing on a train platform. A woman is sitted in the middle of a moving train traveling towards the man. When the train is half past the man, lightning strikes at the same instant at both ends of the train. The man sees the lightning at the same time. This makes sense since the distance traveled by light from both ends is the same.

However, the thought experiment propose that the woman sees the light from the front of the train first. This is because she 'runs' into light from the front since she is moving forward with the train.She then conclude that lightning struck the front first since she is equidistant from the front and back of the train.

I am confused. Since the train is not accelerating, it can be treated as an inertial frame of reference. Speed of light c should be constant in the woman's frame of reference. Thus when only regarding the woman's frame, shdn't she see both lightning at the same time? Since both light travels at c and have to cover half of the train's length.

The fact that the woman runs into the front lightning is the observation from the man's frame of reference. So when we are talking about the woman's observations, why are we trying to use the man's frame of reference to predict the results? Shdn't we be isolating the woman's frame of reference and analysing that independently?

I hope my words are clear! Thanks for reading and help me out if you can[emoji1]

I've pondered this thought experiment for years and think I've arrived at the simplest explanation. The reader is tricked by the description of the two strikes as simultaneous ("at the same time" as you put it). But that's only from the man's point of view. Let's re-describe the situation.

The woman on the train sees the two strikes as simultaneous. For this to be the case, because the woman is moving toward the location of the front strike and that flash has a shorter distance to travel to reach her than does the rear strike, the man would have to see the rear strike first, followed by the front strike.

You may be tempted to say that the rear strike really does occur first in this case; but, as the story proves, simultaneity and sequentiality are perceptions, not reality!
 
  • #94
The reader is misled when the strikes are described as "simultaneous". They are simultaneous only from the man's point of view. Because she is moving forward, for her to see them as simultaneous, the rear strike would have to occur first because it has a longer distance to cover before reaching her.

Actually, saying the rear strike would have to occur first is inaccurate. It would have to occur first in the man's reference frame. As the story proves, simultaneity is in the mind of the beholder, not in reality!
 
  • #95
The readers are mislead by the refusal to use the adequate language, which is to use four-vectors for the "events" (strikes) in Minkowski space. Then you can calculate, what any observer observes without making 1000 confusing words.
 
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  • #96
Peter Martin said:
The reader is tricked by the description of the two strikes as simultaneous.

In that sense, the reader is also tricked by the description of a pitcher throwing a baseball at a speed of 98 mi/h. The ball doesn't really move that fast, it's just that from the pitcher's perspective the speed is 98 mi/h.

You may be tempted to say that the rear strike really does occur first in this case; but, as the story proves, simultaneity and sequentiality are perceptions, not reality!

Baseball pitchers are paid a lot of money for doing something that's not real?

Things that are relative, like simultaneity and speed, are things described by physics. Whether they're real or not is a matter of subjective perception, not objective reality.

On the other hand, the sequential ordering of events with timelike separation is preserved. For example, Queen Elizabeth II assumed the duties of the monarchy after her father, King George VI died. The order of those two events is not relative, all observers will agree on it. And also that every effect was preceded by its cause.
 
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  • #97
Peter Martin said:
The reader is misled when the strikes are described as "simultaneous". They are simultaneous only from the man's point of view. Because she is moving forward, for her to see them as simultaneous, the rear strike would have to occur first because it has a longer distance to cover before reaching her.

Actually, saying the rear strike would have to occur first is inaccurate. It would have to occur first in the man's reference frame. As the story proves, simultaneity is in the mind of the beholder, not in reality!

For this to happen the closing speed between the woman and the flash needs to be greater than c.

A better way to look at this is by considering observable events.
 
  • #98
taenyfan said:
I am puzzled over einstein's thought experiment on simultaneity.

In this experiment, a man is standing on a train platform. A woman is sitted in the middle of a moving train traveling towards the man. When the train is half past the man, lightning strikes at the same instant at both ends of the train. The man sees the lightning at the same time. This makes sense since the distance traveled by light from both ends is the same.

However, the thought experiment propose that the woman sees the light from the front of the train first. This is because she 'runs' into light from the front since she is moving forward with the train.She then conclude that lightning struck the front first since she is equidistant from the front and back of the train.

I am confused. Since the train is not accelerating, it can be treated as an inertial frame of reference. Speed of light c should be constant in the woman's frame of reference. Thus when only regarding the woman's frame, shdn't she see both lightning at the same time? Since both light travels at c and have to cover half of the train's length.

The fact that the woman runs into the front lightning is the observation from the man's frame of reference. So when we are talking about the woman's observations, why are we trying to use the man's frame of reference to predict the results? Shdn't we be isolating the woman's frame of reference and analysing that independently?

I hope my words are clear! Thanks for reading and help me out if you can[emoji1]

I agree. Here's my thought on the subject of inertial frames of reference and the principles describing the propagation of light.

Does Einstein’s train-lightening thought experiment violate SR?

Let’s propose a scenario which doesn’t differ significantly from Einsetin’s.

A high-speed bullet train runs on a straight portion of track. A woman sits in an isle seat at the train’s midpoint. The doors between the cars are open, allowing the woman to see all the way to the front and rear of the train, where at each location a strobe light is mounted. The two lights are wired to a switch at the woman’s seat.

As the train plummets ahead, she throws the switch. Let’s assume Einstein’s conclusion that she sees the forward flash first.

Now, the train is an inertial reference frame. SR states that all the laws of physics — including those pertaining to light — are the same for all inertial reference frames — that there exist no “preferred” reference frames. Any inertial reference frame has an equal claim to being “at rest” relative to other frames.

But the train is a preferred reference frame. (Or more accurately, a “non-preferred” reference frame.) By analyzing data entirely from within the train, she can conclude that the train is moving. Were the train at rest on the tracks, there is no doubt she would see the strobe flashes as simultaneous. Knowing the train’s length and having an atomic clock, she could even calculate the train’s speed based on the interval between the arrival of the two flashes.

I’d appreciate a clear explanation of what’s wrong with this picture.
 
  • #99
Peter Martin said:
By analyzing data entirely from within the train, she can conclude that the train is moving
Wrong. She can conclude that the train is moving relative to the ground, but for all relevant purposes this is described as the ground moving in the train's rest frame. All that she will be able to conclude is what the relative velocity between the ground and the train is, but any observer can do this based on their own rest frame.
 
  • #100
Peter Martin said:
I agree. Here's my thought on the subject of inertial frames of reference and the principles describing the propagation of light.

Does Einstein’s train-lightening thought experiment violate SR?

Let’s propose a scenario which doesn’t differ significantly from Einsetin’s.

A high-speed bullet train runs on a straight portion of track. A woman sits in an isle seat at the train’s midpoint. The doors between the cars are open, allowing the woman to see all the way to the front and rear of the train, where at each location a strobe light is mounted. The two lights are wired to a switch at the woman’s seat.

As the train plummets ahead, she throws the switch. Let’s assume Einstein’s conclusion that she sees the forward flash first.

Now, the train is an inertial reference frame. SR states that all the laws of physics — including those pertaining to light — are the same for all inertial reference frames — that there exist no “preferred” reference frames. Any inertial reference frame has an equal claim to being “at rest” relative to other frames.

But the train is a preferred reference frame. (Or more accurately, a “non-preferred” reference frame.) By analyzing data entirely from within the train, she can conclude that the train is moving. Were the train at rest on the tracks, there is no doubt she would see the strobe flashes as simultaneous. Knowing the train’s length and having an atomic clock, she could even calculate the train’s speed based on the interval between the arrival of the two flashes.

I’d appreciate a clear explanation of what’s wrong with this picture.
In the scenario you give, Einstein conclusion would not be that she would see the forward flash first, but that she would see both flashes at the same time She would also conclude that both strobes were triggered simultaneously. An observer on the embankment would agree that the light from the flashes reach her at the same time, but would not agree that the strobes were triggered simultaneously. If she timed the throwing of her switch such that, according to her the signals traveling along the wires reached the strobes at the same moment as she was passing the embankment observer, you have basically the same thing as Einstein's train experiment where you have just changed the frame in which the flashes are deemed to occur simultaneously. (even in the original set up, our train observer would agree that the light flashes hit the embankment observer at the same moment.)

The only thing you have added is that she initiates the strobes by throwing a switch connected by wires to the strobes. But there will be a propagation delay between the throwing of the switch and the strobes firing. For her this delay will be equal for both strobes. For the embankment observer, it will not be. For him, you would have to apply the relativistic addition of velocities to the signals.
Electric signals travel a bit slower than c. Lets' use 0.95c as an example, and assume that the train is moving at 0.99 c relative to the tracks.

Then for the embankment observer, the signal traveling in the direction of the train's motion would be moving at
(0.99c+0.95c)/(1+0.99c(0.95c)) = 0.9997c, relative to himself and 0.0497c with respect to the train.

The signal traveling in the other direction would be moving at
(0.99c-0.95c)/(1-0.99c(0.95c)) = 0.6723c relative to him and 0.2777c with respect to the train.

Since switch is at the midpoint between the strobes on the train, this signal will reach its strobe first triggering its flash before the other according to the embankment frame.

Introducing the switch and signals traveling along them the wires just adds another complicating factor to the scenario. One which includes more than just the relativity of simultaneity which the scenario is meant to illustrate.
 
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