Smart or Attractive? Biology's Debate on Selection

[turbo]

Here you go Evo. He's really talented, skinny, quirky, with a big nose and tousled hair. He doesn't wear glasses, but if it helps, he tends to squint when the lights are bright.

http://main.losthighwayrecords.com/artist.aspx?ob=ros&src=lb&aid=54

Be sure to turn up your speakers - good audio clips!

 

[lah214]

I didn't vote at all.

I don't see why everyone thinks we live in a world where we can only choose one or the other.

haha, its not like who your "mate" is will actually depend on this question. Its like would you rather be burned to death, or drown? Obviously you wouldn't actually WANT either of these things to happen to you, its just a tough question that makes you think, haha.

 

[jim mcnamara]

... its just a tough question that makes you think, haha.

Hm.

We're just urinatin' around here making talk and occasionally making sense, too...
The one with the pheromone-iest pee wins, I guess. Who said anything about thinking?
haha, or since Christmas is nigh, hoho.

Or: have you stopped beating your wife? (yes or no)

 

[B. Elliott]

Do you go out much Evo? The reason for asking is that after looking at the pictures you posted in the member photo thread, I don't see how you would have a problem meeting people. The license picture even looks good, and that's a rarity! You're attractive, intelligent, and seem to have your head on straight. You're good to go. Get out there and show them what they're missing.

I think what we need here are some Evo glamor shots.

 

[Evo]

Do you go out much Evo? The reason for asking is that after looking at the pictures you posted in the member photo thread, I don't see how you would have a problem meeting people. The license picture even looks good, and that's a rarity! You're attractive, intelligent, and seem to have your head on straight. You're good to go. Get out there and show them what they're missing.

I think what we need here are some Evo glamor shots.

I don't have trouble finding men that are interested in me, I have troubled finding men that I am interested in. <big sigh>

Men I've met online (with a couple of exceptions) were either boring, lacked a sense of humor, were emotionally over sensitive, or unemployable.

Men that I meet in person are usually shallow, egotistical, and not too bright. That's the kind of men that approach me in person. I have better luck online.

I actually found a homeless guy (online) that was hysterically funny and intelligent, but he was so bitter about his predicament that it ruined everything good about him. I don't know if he really slept in a cardboard box, but I do know that he was having to move in with his mother because he'd been unemployed for so long that he lost his house and car.

 

[turbo]

I don't have trouble finding men that are interested in me, I have troubled finding men that I am interested in. <big sigh>

Men I've met online (with a couple of exceptions) were either boring, lacked a sense of humor, were emotionally over sensitive, or unemployable.

Men that I meet in person are usually shallow, egotistical, and not too bright. That's the kind of men that approach me in person. I have better luck online.

I actually found a homeless guy (online) that was hysterically funny and intelligent, but he was so bitter about his predicament that it ruined everything good about him. I don't know if he really slept in a cardboard box, but I do know that he was having to move in with his mother because he'd been unemployed for so long that he lost his house and car.

How do you know, though? I can often tell in seconds if I'm going to click with someone if we meet in person, but there is no way to gauge that on-line. Between smiles, body-language, evasive reactions to threats of closeness or questions, you can tell a LOT from a person. On-line, people get a lot of time to craft their responses, and there a few of the subtle clues, unless you are a linguist.

Note: From Astronuc's posts on this forum, I had a very high level of confidence that he and I would get along well, and my wife and I thoroughly enjoyed his family's visit. Very nice visit with lots of great conversations in a very short bit of time. He and his wife and kids are welcome here any old time. The big difference was that I took Astronuc at face value from his well-considered posts here. If someone takes a personal interest in you on-line, it may be tough to form an objective opinion of them.

 

[Evo]

How do you know, though? I can often tell in seconds if I'm going to click with someone if we meet in person, but there is no way to gauge that on-line. Between smiles, body-language, evasive reactions to threats of closeness or questions, you can tell a LOT from a person. On-line, people get a lot of time to craft their responses, and there a few of the subtle clues, unless you are a linguist.

Note: From Astronuc's posts on this forum, I had a very high level of confidence that he and I would get along well, and my wife and I thoroughly enjoyed his family's visit. Very nice visit with lots of great conversations in a very short bit of time. He and his wife and kids are welcome here any old time. The big difference was that I took Astronuc at face value from his well-considered posts here. If someone takes a personal interest in you on-line, it may be tough to form an objective opinion of them.

I find just the opposite to be true. I can learn much more about a person online in a short while, I seem to have an uncanny ability to see through phonies and see red flags.

Meeting someone in person, you know absolutely nothing about them and usually have to make a snap decision on whether to give them your phone number and or accept a date. "In person" gives you no time to really evaluate the person you've just met. Anyone can keep up a charade in person for awhile, at least. I usually find after a few e-mails I can "sense" if some things are not quite right about a person. I've never been wrong, all of the people I've met in person after meeting on-line turned out to be exactly the same in person. Some have been close friends for 10+ years.

 

[GleefulNihilism]

I'm just trying to picture a situation where these options or nothing.

The only thing that comes close is the cliche "Stranded on a Desert Island" scenario in which "both" is still a viable option, although if I could only make one happy I'd go for the smart one because she's actually going to help get all 3 of us off the island.

 

[BobG]

How do you know, though? I can often tell in seconds if I'm going to click with someone if we meet in person, but there is no way to gauge that on-line. Between smiles, body-language, evasive reactions to threats of closeness or questions, you can tell a LOT from a person. On-line, people get a lot of time to craft their responses, and there a few of the subtle clues, unless you are a linguist.

Note: From Astronuc's posts on this forum, I had a very high level of confidence that he and I would get along well, and my wife and I thoroughly enjoyed his family's visit. Very nice visit with lots of great conversations in a very short bit of time. He and his wife and kids are welcome here any old time. The big difference was that I took Astronuc at face value from his well-considered posts here. If someone takes a personal interest in you on-line, it may be tough to form an objective opinion of them.

I find just the opposite to be true. I can learn much more about a person online in a short while, I seem to have an uncanny ability to see through phonies and see red flags.

Meeting someone in person, you know absolutely nothing about them and usually have to make a snap decision on whether to give them your phone number and or accept a date. "In person" gives you no time to really evaluate the person you've just met. Anyone can keep up a charade in person for awhile, at least. I usually find after a few e-mails I can "sense" if some things are not quite right about a person. I've never been wrong, all of the people I've met in person after meeting on-line turned out to be exactly the same in person. Some have been close friends for 10+ years.

I read about a study where they showed students 10-30 second video clips of an instructor and asked them to rate the instructor's ability. The ratings of the students watching video clips pretty much matched the ratings of the students that took the semester long courses.

That should work with finding mates, too, shouldn't it?

Okay, I'm a little skeptical, which is why I didn't bother to search for the paper on the students rating the video clips. It's just one of those things that might give you something to think about (value of first impressions, a good instructor has both his verbal and non-verbal communication working on the same page, etc), but probably not a good guide on how to make decisions about someone.

 

[Beeza]

An old friend of mine told me to pick a woman that can cook because when you are older your still going to want to eat 3 times a day, but there will be other things you can no londer do 3 times a day :)

 

[JasonRox]

I read about a study where they showed students 10-30 second video clips of an instructor and asked them to rate the instructor's ability. The ratings of the students watching video clips pretty much matched the ratings of the students that took the semester long courses.

That should work with finding mates, too, shouldn't it?

Okay, I'm a little skeptical, which is why I didn't bother to search for the paper on the students rating the video clips. It's just one of those things that might give you something to think about (value of first impressions, a good instructor has both his verbal and non-verbal communication working on the same page, etc), but probably not a good guide on how to make decisions about someone.

I doubt this is true. I'm sure the experimenters said something relevant about the prof. before the video clip and that itself changes everything.

The problem is when Evo meets someone in public, she has already constructed a role for this man. For example, like she said, shallow, egotistical, and not too bright. (Although she thinks she's open, but the fact that she can put words to describe the general man tells me she clearly isn't.) She's already submitted this person into a "role" sometimes. Once you fall into a "role" within a person's mind, it's really hard to get out. Even though the guy clearly does not fall in that role, people won't let go of the "role" they assigned to them. Anyways, a popular example is the "friend" role. A guy has a hard time picking up a girl where the girl sees the guy as a friend. All guys know this. Another example, is the "role" that you can never be pretty enough.

Anyways, the best thing for Evo to do is to STOP her categorization for men that she meets. Personally it's bad for her and also it shows lack of personality, character and openess on her part. I'd be completely turned off by a girl like that. It's not the job of the man to get out of the "role". It's her job to keep an open mind, listen to him, and make a new judgement for each person, everytime. I mean from a clean start. Let go of the whole shallow, egotistical, and not too bright.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

An old friend of mine told me to pick a woman that can cook because when you are older your still going to want to eat 3 times a day, but there will be other things you can no londer do 3 times a day :)

Two down days. The first time you can't do it twice and the second time you can't do it once.

 

[JasonRox]

but there will be other things you can no londer do 3 times a day :)

Pfff... that's a myth.

 

[Lisa!]

Well if I want to be realistic and have a mate anyway, I have to go for a homely dumb guy! You know if a guy gets intersted in me , he's already proved his dumbness to me and since I don't consider myself attractive at all , he's a homely person anyway.

<I'm keeping my fingers crossed that neither my husband nor my bf would read this post>

 

[Evo]

I doubt this is true. I'm sure the experimenters said something relevant about the prof. before the video clip and that itself changes everything.

The problem is when Evo meets someone in public, she has already constructed a role for this man. For example, like she said, shallow, egotistical, and not too bright. (Although she thinks she's open, but the fact that she can put words to describe the general man tells me she clearly isn't.) She's already submitted this person into a "role" sometimes. Once you fall into a "role" within a person's mind, it's really hard to get out. Even though the guy clearly does not fall in that role, people won't let go of the "role" they assigned to them. Anyways, a popular example is the "friend" role. A guy has a hard time picking up a girl where the girl sees the guy as a friend. All guys know this. Another example, is the "role" that you can never be pretty enough.

Anyways, the best thing for Evo to do is to STOP her categorization for men that she meets. Personally it's bad for her and also it shows lack of personality, character and openess on her part. I'd be completely turned off by a girl like that. It's not the job of the man to get out of the "role". It's her job to keep an open mind, listen to him, and make a new judgement for each person, everytime. I mean from a clean start. Let go of the whole shallow, egotistical, and not too bright.

There you go thinking you know me when you don't know how many hundreds of men I'm talking about meeting in person and how I can group the majority of them. I don't have actual preconceived categories for anyone online or off line, I was just trying to get across what most of the men are like "that I meet in person".

See, you don't realize that when I would "go out", well, this is how a typical night would go. We'd park, I'd step out of the car and suddenly 20 something year old men would start screaming and hooting and whistling.

A couple of them would usually fall to their knees in front of me, there would usually be someone asking me to marry them.

Men would run from across the street and knock my girlfriend over just to tell me that I was the most beautiful woman they'd ever seen.

I'd get guys coming up to me saying things like "my friends and I just wanted to thank you for being here".

A guy came out of the bathroom and said that every guy in there was talking about my legs.

Men would fall down stairs when they saw me.

If there was a line in front of a night club, I'd be pulled into the club by the bouncer and told that I'd been "spotted" and given an MVP pass so I could always just walk right in.

If I went to a restaurant or exclusive bar, the owner would quite often come out to sit with me and comp me and my party.

Once I was meeting someone at the bar at a Marriott, I pointed at their table and motioned for them to come over, instantly two different guys bounced up from their tables and came running up to me thinking I was motioning to them, and my husband was standing next to me.

I got up once at a table in a club in Chicago and started to put on my coat and couple of guys ran over and started helping me.

At a bar here, the owner of the most expessive, exclusive athletic club offered me a free membership. He said based on what he was hearing and observing of men around me, I would be worth my weight in gold to have me there.

I went to have my transmission looked at and the owner offered me the job of being their spokesmodel ( I was 16 and my mom said no).

I could go on and on.

NOW, do you understand why I feel the way I do about going out and meeting men. Nice, shy guys when they'd see all the men around me would never come near me.

So, don't think you know me or why I can make the generalizations I make, and I'm not exaggerating about any of this.

 

[JasonRox]

There you go thinking you know me when you don't know how many hundreds of men I'm talking about meeting in person and how I can group the majority of them. I don't have actual preconceived categories for anyone online or off line, I was just trying to get across what most of the men are like "that I meet in person".

See, you don't realize that when I would "go out", well, this is how a typical night would go. We'd park, I'd step out of the car and suddenly 20 something year old men would start screaming and hooting and whistling.

A couple of them would usually fall to their knees in front of me, there would usually be someone asking me to marry them.

Men would run from across the street and knock my girlfriend over just to tell me that I was the most beautiful woman they'd ever seen.

I'd get guys coming up to me saying things like "my friends and I just wanted to thank you for being here".

A guy came out of the bathroom and said that every guy in there was talking about my legs.

Men would fall down stairs when they saw me.

If there was a line in front of a night club, I'd be pulled into the club by the bouncer and told that I'd been "spotted" and given and MVP pass so I could always just walk right in.

If I went to a restaurant or exclusive bar, the owner would quite often come out to sit with me and comp me and my party.

Once I was meeting someone at the bar at a Marriott, I pointed at their table and motioned for them to come over, instantly two different guys bounced up from their tables and came running up to me thinking I was motioning to them, and my husband was standing next to me.

I got up once at a table in a club in Chicago and started to put on my coat and couple of guys ran over and started helping me.

At a bar here, the owner of the most expessive, exclusive club offered me a free membership. He said based on what he was hearing and observing of men around me, I would be worth my weight in gold to have me there.

I went to have my transmission looked at and the owner offered me the job of being their spokesmodel ( I was 16 and my mom said no).

I could go on and on.

NOW, do you understand why I feel the way I do about going out and meeting men. Nice, shy guys when they'd see all the men around me would never come near me.

So, don't think you know me or why I can make the generalizations I make, and I'm not exaggerating about any of this.

And, you can still get to know men. Men do immature things and so do women. If it's a little too immature, then yeah that's creepy.

Also, I do believe all the above happen. Don't get me wrong, but that happens to women in general. I've talked to many girls and they all have stories like that.

 

[Huckleberry]

Evo, have you tried introducing yourself to men that you think you might be interested in but have not been approached by? If the men that are approaching you are not of the proper caliber then you will need to take the role of the aggressor towards some lucky guy. Maybe a passive aggressive strategy would be appropriate.

I've never understood completely the rules of dating. Is the woman allowed to make her interest in a man known first? Is subtlety the general rule until official interest is established?

 

[Evo]

Evo, have you tried introducing yourself to men that you think you might be interested in but have not been approached by? If the men that are approaching you are not of the proper caliber then you will need to take the role of the aggressor towards some lucky guy. Maybe a passive aggressive strategy would be appropriate.

I've never understood completely the rules of dating. Is the woman allowed to make her interest in a man known first? Is subtlety the general rule until official interest is established?

In public it's been nearly impossible. Which is why I find meeting over the internet so much better. In person, how do I know that I would like some guy I see sitting across a room? On the internet I can talk to that guy and have some idea if we get along *before* we meet, or I might decide that there is no reason to meet.

 

[Huckleberry]

In public it's been nearly impossible. Which is why I find meeting over the internet so much better. In person, how do I know that I would like some guy I see sitting across a room? On the internet I can talk to that guy and have some idea if we get along *before* we meet, or I might decide that there is no reason to meet.

The best way to find out if you like someone is to say hello. Then talk to them and see how you get along. I expect there will be a lot of awkwardness on his part as he wonders why this attractive woman is striking up a conversation with him? You might feel some too if approaching men is something you are not familiar with. I sometimes wonder at how you judge groups of people, but I know you are a good judge of individual character. You can use that to your advantage on the internet or in person.

 

[rewebster]

Evo-It almost sounds like you feel like you've been denied a normal life just because you were born to be more 'attractive' than most.


---and cursed with maybe being a little smarter and not shallow at the same time.

---------------------------

who is red rum?

 

[Evo]

The best way to find out if you like someone is to say hello. Then talk to them and see how you get along. I expect there will be a lot of awkwardness on his part as he wonders why this attractive woman is striking up a conversation with him? You might feel some too if approaching men is something you are not familiar with.

I've almost always done the asking out when I was in my teens. I'd just go up to the guy and ask him where he was taking me Friday night. Always worked. But I usually knew the guy from other friends, or work (I worked at a bookstore).

When you get older, if you don't attend church, bars are about the only place to find large pits of single men.

I find TONS of married men, or in the case of Red Rum, he has a long time girlfriend and he's completely faithful to her. Now, *he'd* make a great catch, alas I am relegated to being just an imaginary friend.

 

[radou]

I've almost always done the asking out when I was in my teens.

Now, that's the spirit!

When you get older, if you don't attend church, bars are about the only place to find large pits of single men.

What about sneaking into a mass on Sunday?

 

[Evo]

What about sneaking into a mass on Sunday?

But, they would probably be religious.

Oh come on, Red Rum is going to be out of touch for 3 weeks starting on the 21st and I need a temporary replacement to listen to me whine. I'm the only PF sister without a man for the holidays.

100 GOOBF cards for anyone finding someone for me to annoy for the holidays!

Did I mention I have a great voice? My whining isn't all *that* annoying.

 

[Huckleberry]

When you get older, if you don't attend church, bars are about the only place to find large pits of single men.

I'm in that boat with you. My advice ends about there. Maybe try a club if there are any near you. Something that you enjoy anyway, hiking, cycling, reading, whatever.

That reminds me. When I first registered here at PF I had a full hairline. Now it's noticably receded. It's a bit upsetting, not so much because I care about the appearance of it, but because it is a constant reminder that I'm getting older in a hurry.

 

[rewebster]

Did I mention I have a great voice? My whining isn't all *that* annoying.

maybe that's why the dog pees in the house

 

[Mk]

When you get older, if you don't attend church, bars are about the only place to find large pits of single men.

As for what I say, bars are not only filled with large pits of singles, but large pits of singles I wouldn't touch. If they're in a bar they're not for me. If they're in a church they're not for me either

 

[radou]

But, they would probably be religious.

... or simply going to church for the same reason as you did.

Even if they were religious, would that bother you a lot? Well, I don't know what "religious people" are like where you live. If they're all stereotypes, then I understand you.

Oh come on, Red Rum is going to be out of touch for 3 weeks starting on the 21st and I need a temporary replacement to listen to me whine. I'm the only PF sister without a man for the holidays.

Was it so hard to produce Red Rum in your mind, that you can't produce another imaginary friend now?

Joke aside, holidays are tough. I suggest we start a thread named "A list of volunteers to help out Evo" and then you can vote for whom you like the most.

 

[Moonbear]

A couple of them would usually fall to their knees in front of me, there would usually be someone asking me to marry them.

Men would run from across the street and knock my girlfriend over just to tell me that I was the most beautiful woman they'd ever seen.

...

NOW, do you understand why I feel the way I do about going out and meeting men. Nice, shy guys when they'd see all the men around me would never come near me.

I think the point Jason might have been trying to make, or at least the one I'm going to make about this, is how many of those guys who acted so outrageously around you did you give a chance and actually try dating? How do you know they weren't intelligent, sweet guys who were just really bad at knowing a nice way to pick up women? How do you know the shy guy who wouldn't get involved in that scene was going to be nice and smart? He might have just been a clueless, dorky, insufferably neurotic shy guy.

Some of those bold guys who would flock around you may have been that shallow, others might have just been very playful, while yet others may have been noticing you from across the room interacting with your friends and after being egged on by friends and plied with alcohol, finally walked up and introduced himself in such an outrageous way because he thought he needed to do so to compete with all the other guys vying for your attention.

Here's a question...if you think it's the quiet, shy guy you're interested in, have you ever looked around a bar and seen such a guy sitting in a corner and taken it upon yourself to head over to his table and start talking? If not, how are you going to meet him?

 

[Evo]

I think the point Jason might have been trying to make, or at least the one I'm going to make about this, is how many of those guys who acted so outrageously around you did you give a chance and actually try dating? How do you know they weren't intelligent, sweet guys who were just really bad at knowing a nice way to pick up women?

Given that I was in my forties and they were in their twenties...it wasn't worth getting into. That's another reason I stopped going out, I could have been the mother of most of these guys. Then when my girls started going out, there was no way I was going to be at the same clubs they were at with their friends.

Here's a question...if you think it's the quiet, shy guy you're interested in, have you ever looked around a bar and seen such a guy sitting in a corner and taken it upon yourself to head over to his table and start talking? If not, how are you going to meet him?

Yes, I have. I met a great guy and he was so shy that he had trouble looking at me, getting close to me, one night I finally grabbed him at the curb and kissed him to make it clear I was interested. It took his best friend 3 weeks to get him to call me and ask me out after that. And this was a very well known, powerful attorney here, he was in charge of a few of the most popular charitable dances and social functions in town due to his social status. I couldn't pry words out of his mouth.

 

[Evo]

Joke aside, holidays are tough. I suggest we start a thread named "A list of volunteers to help out Evo" and then you can vote for whom you like the most.

Ok, you can start it.

<sticks 50 goobf cards into radous computer>