So much for controlling the border

[edward]

They just keep getting bolder. Although this was probably a diversion tactic perpetrated by drug runners, drug runners and illegal alien smugglers are now the same people.

TUCSON, Ariz. — National Guard troops working at an observatory post near the Mexican border were forced to flee after being approached by a group of armed individuals, authorities said.

The event occurred about 11 p.m. Wednesday at one of the National Guard entrance identification team posts near Sasabe, said National Guard Sgt. Edward Balaban.

He said the troops withdrew safely, no shots were fired and no one suffered injuries.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,241783,00.html

It appears that all of the pre-election big talk about securing the border has been forgotten. I still have to take off my shoes to get on an airplane, yet armed criminals can cross the border at will.

U.S. Border Patrol officials are investigating the incident and trying to determine who the armed people were, what they were doing and why they approached the post before retreating to Mexico.

 

[berkeman]

Kind of strange ROE in place for those National Guard troops, doesn't it seem? I wonder what their official ROE are?

 

[berkeman]

Weird. This story says it was Border Patrol Agents, not National Guard troops:

http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/borderstory0104-CR.html

 

[edward]

Kind of strange ROE in place for those National Guard troops, doesn't it seem? I wonder what their official ROE are?

Not all of them are armed, although those close to the border are supposed to be. I would imagine that they have some strict rules in place so as to avoid shooting at a friendly.

So now who is going to guard the Guard?

There have been a number of border incursions by armed groups in recent months, some dressed in mexican military uniforms.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewstory.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200612/NAT20061221a.html

 

[edward]

Weird. This story says it was Border Patrol Agents, not National Guard troops:

http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/borderstory0104-CR.html

It was a Border Patrol site manned by the Guard. Spotting and reporting to the Boarder Patrol is primarily what the Guard is doing. They are not allowed to apprehend anyone. Edit: They are officially, "National Guard entrance identification teams."

 

[berkeman]

Not all of them are armed, although those close to the border are supposed to be. I would imagine that they have some strict rules in place so as to avoid shooting at a friendly.

Hmmm. That's a good point. It would be a real drag to be out rabbit hunting near the border and get hosed by a startled troop that you didn't see.

 

[BobG]

It appears that all of the pre-election big talk about securing the border has been forgotten. I still have to take off my shoes to get on an airplane, yet armed criminals can cross the border at will.

Immigration and securing the border are normally pretty low profile topics among the public. The issues spiked to the top of everyone's list momentarily and now they're sliding back to their normal spot. Tancredo will wear himself out trying to fan the flames high enough for anyone to care whether he runs for President or not.

A smart politician could push through some sort of sensible immigration bill (similar to the McCain-Kennedy bill) if they cared enough to do it when it wouldn't garner them headlines.

 

[McGyver]

A smart politician could push through some sort of sensible immigration bill (similar to the McCain-Kennedy bill) if they cared enough to do it when it wouldn't garner them headlines.

Very True. I think what bothers me most - are the lies (and spin) about illegal immigration! At some point, all the economic numbers, costs data, etc. must be settled. They (Washington) are merely sidelining any corrective action on this problem, and dumping its consequences onto the next generation of Americans! If you did so in business, you'd be fired or run out of town! In Washington, there are few to no consequences for failed leadership.

 

[McGyver]

It was a Border Patrol site manned by the Guard. Spotting and reporting to the Boarder Patrol is primarily what the Guard is doing. They are not allowed to apprehend anyone. Edit: They are officially, "National Guard entrance identification teams."

I am wondering if I could get the Guard to do the same as an observer in my next "brain surgery." It was a real fiasco in 1992. Oh - but our government doesn't involve itself in those matters either. They leave it to you to file a civil action, then criticize you if you do. Sound familiar??

 

[edward]

Immigration and securing the border are normally pretty low profile topics among the public. The issues spiked to the top of everyone's list momentarily and now they're sliding back to their normal spot. Tancredo will wear himself out trying to fan the flames high enough for anyone to care whether he runs for President or not.

A smart politician could push through some sort of sensible immigration bill (similar to the McCain-Kennedy bill) if they cared enough to do it when it wouldn't garner them headlines.

When armed illegals can cross the border and force National Guard personnel from their positions, it is time to wake up the politicians. As I mentioned before, who are we supposed to send out to guard the Natioanl Guard?

 

[berkeman]

I still would like to read their ROE. That's at the core of the troubling part of this incident.

 

[edward]

I still would like to read their ROE. That's at the core of the troubling part of this incident.

This happened close to the border so the Guardsmen would have been armed.
They are allowed to use their weapons to defend themselves against an armed aggressor.

To date there had never been a situation where this was necessary, at least with the NG. It is very unlikely that the Guardsmen had their weapons in their hands. It is has been reported that the intruders did. In the old lingo, the bad guys got the drop on them.

According to my local news, On Wednesday night two Guardsmen apparently decided to flee when suddenly confronted by twelve armed men. They made the right choice.

 

[berkeman]

Well, I obviously wasn't there. But if I were at that station and got surprised, I doubt that I would have run very far before firing accurately. And sure as hell, after this incident, I would be much more ready to react. And sure as hell, the COs involved better make sire that they are ready and that the ROE are appropriate.

Easy for me to say I guess, sitting here in my living room. But in addition to the HAM emergency preparedness notes in my footer, I'm also CERT, ERT, and Guard-Card, so running from the bad guys is wrong IMO.

 

[edward]

Versions from the local news seem to vary a bit. This one seems to paint the picture pretty well.

http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=5893881&nav=menu216_3_3

 

[berkeman]

Versions from the local news seem to vary a bit. This one seems to paint the picture pretty well.

http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=5893881&nav=menu216_3_3

Agent Jim Hawkins said, "The weapons that these individuals were carrying were in plain view. The National Guard soldiers were aware that the individuals were armed and were approaching their position."

The encounter happened near Sasabe at an entry identification sight.

Shots were never fired and no one was injured, but border officials say the approaching men were aggressive, but then they went back into Mexico.

Hawkins said, "We're still trying to determine how close the individuals came and if they exactly there were any interactions with the Guard and the individuals."

Something has to be wrong about that account. Even us Security Guards/EEs/ERTs have ROE that involves shooting in those situations.

 

[edward]

Something has to be wrong about that account. Even us Security Guards/EEs/ERTs have ROE that involves shooting in those situations.

The latest local news indicates that the National Guard is to back off to avoid an armed conflict if possible. The Gardsmen saw the armed intruders approaching in time to follow that directive.

This information came from a member of the Minute Man Group who is in touch with the NG.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Something has to be wrong about that account. Even us Security Guards/EEs/ERTs have ROE that involves shooting in those situations.

Really? What happened to observe and report? It only seems logical to me that if there is no immediate threat to life or property (or in this case national security as well) then the best course of action is to back off and keep an eye on them, call in back up just incase. No one was shot or hurt. No shots were fired. Seems like the perfect and proper outcome based on the reaction. If there was a show of force things would have likely gotten pretty messy.

 

[berkeman]

Really? What happened to observe and report? It only seems logical to me that if there is no immediate threat to life or property (or in this case national security as well) then the best course of action is to back off and keep an eye on them, call in back up just incase. No one was shot or hurt. No shots were fired. Seems like the perfect and proper outcome based on the reaction. If there was a show of force things would have likely gotten pretty messy.

People with guns drawn running at you changes things. I haven't gone back and re-read the articles, but maybe their ROE were not to fire unless fired upon. I'm glad that nobody was hurt.

 

[edward]

People with guns drawn running at you changes things. I haven't gone back and re-read the articles, but maybe their ROE were not to fire unless fired upon. I'm glad that nobody was hurt.

The big problem is that no one seems to want to divulge the exact ROE. The situation is still under investigation because a lot of local people are angry that the NG was apparently following orders when they retreated.

These armed men will end up shooting someone. The drug dealers are getting desperate to move shipments through AZ since CA has been pretty much sealed off.

It is hard to get recent statistics, but it is evident that the coyotes and drug dealers are getting bolder.

From 2005:

The Tucson and San Diego sectors are the hotspots; in fiscal year 2005 (ending Sept. 30), they recorded 43 incidents of agents being shot at, compared with 18 the year before. Three agents in those sectors were struck by bullets, two of them just east from this Nogales hill. A total of 20 agents have been hospitalized. And they've fought back, killing five smuggling suspects in the two sectors.

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/gbase/Currents/Content?oid=oid:77018

This year a forrest ranger was shot and killed. These guys still have to go out there and do their jobs. The same goes for Game and Fish officers. Most of them who must go close to the border are now carrying M 16's in their vehicles.

 

[edward]

There has been another incident involving National Guard troops. This time, according to my local paper, a group of illegals started pelting a Guard outpost with rocks.

The Guardsmen withdrew from the scene and called the Border patrol. The intruders broke the windows out of the NG vehicle and were back in Mexico before the Border Patrol arrived.

As far as weapons, the Guardsmen do have them, but can not engage unless the situation warrants it. ? Another oddity in the newspaper article stated that the Guardsmen are issued three magazines with thirty rounds each. The odd thing is that the troops are usually in groups of four at the outposts near the border.?

Last summer a Blackhawk chopper landed east of Nogales to drop off Border Patrol agents. The agents spread out chasing illegals. One of the illegals started hurling rocks at the Blackhawk.

There was no sign of damage until the chopper tried to take off. Then the pilot quickly realized that a rock had bent the rotor pitch control mechanism.
The pilot had to make a hard drop to the ground. (not quite a hard landing) A mechanic had to be flown into repair the Blackhawk.

This type of thing is in the local papers quite frequently. I just wanted to share.

 

[berkeman]

Another oddity in the newspaper article stated that the Guardsmen are issued three magazines with thirty rounds each. The odd thing is that the troops are usually in groups of four at the outposts near the border.?

I'm guessing that is three magazines per Guardsman, but based on the other stuff, that may not be the case. I would sure want at least three magazines for myself if I were serving at that border

 

[edward]

I'm guessing that is three magazines per Guardsman, but based on the other stuff, that may not be the case. I would sure want at least three magazines for myself if I were serving at that border

Unless the newspaper was wrong that was three magazines per outpost.

I can't find a link yet, some of this stuff only makes the local paper.

 

[edward]

OOPS they do have three magazines per soldier.

The four Guardsmen had infantry training and two had been in Iraq, he said. National Guard soldiers working the entrance-identification team sites are given three ammunition magazines each with 30 rounds, he said.

http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/166815

On Sunday night, assailants with rocks attacked a Guard observation post south of Sells forcing the soldiers, who were armed, to seek cover and notify Border Patrol agents.
Sunday's incident didn't involve any guns and no one was injured, but the rocks smashed two windows on a National Guard truck, said Jesús Rodriguez, a Border Patrol spokesman.
"They moved away for better cover and concealment, to reconsolidate and to reassess

 

[Cyrus]

Is there a problem that they have three magazines?

 

[berkeman]

Is there a problem that they have three magazines?

The problem would have been if there were only 3 magazines for the whole outpost (with 4 or more Guardsmen). Having 3 magazines per soldier is a reasonable start.

 

[edward]

The problem would have been if there were only 3 magazines for the whole outpost (with 4 or more Guardsmen). Having 3 magazines per soldier is a reasonable start.

The biggest problem is that the Guard has no clearly defined RE. And rock throwing is very common. Rocks the size of a softball can be deadly.

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=5785822

 

[X-43D]

Why not abolish political borders? Political borders create inequality in land distribution between countries and they also take away people's freedom to live where they want. Countries are not equal in land distribution. Some countries own more land than others and this is not fair. Land should be equally distributed between states. For example if i want to move to Canada without government authorization, the government can deport and arrest me. Without political borders everyone could go where he wants without being deported and arrested by the state.

 

[Evo]

Why not abolish political borders? Political borders create inequality in land distribution between countries and they also take away people's freedom to live where they want. Countries are not equal in land distribution. Some countries own more land than others and this is not fair. Land should be equally distributed between states. For example if i want to move to Canada without government authorization, the government can deport and arrest me. Without political borders everyone could go where he wants without being deported and arrested by the state.

You're kidding, right?

 

[Astronuc]

You're kidding, right?

No, apparently X-43D is serious, as one would see if one were to read our exchanges in this thread - Bush: Border Security Working
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=165091

I am afraid however, I would disagree with the proposition to abolish political borders - at least for at present. There would be too much chaos and destabilization if all borders were simply abolished.

Humanity must work toward a kinder and gentler world, but I don't see great progress in that direction just now.

 

[Beeza]

Why not abolish political borders? Political borders create inequality in land distribution between countries and they also take away people's freedom to live where they want. Countries are not equal in land distribution. Some countries own more land than others and this is not fair. Land should be equally distributed between states. For example if i want to move to Canada without government authorization, the government can deport and arrest me. Without political borders everyone could go where he wants without being deported and arrested by the state.

So maybe I should be able to build myself a house on the front lawn of the white-house or wherever I please too right?