So much for controlling the border

  1. edward

    edward 1,004
    Gold Member

    They just keep getting bolder. Although this was probably a diversion tactic perpetrated by drug runners, drug runners and illegal alien smugglers are now the same people.


    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,241783,00.html

    It appears that all of the pre-election big talk about securing the border has been forgotten. I still have to take off my shoes to get on an airplane, yet armed criminals can cross the border at will.

     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2007
  2. jcsd
  3. berkeman

    Staff: Mentor

    Kind of strange ROE in place for those National Guard troops, doesn't it seem? I wonder what their official ROE are?
     
  4. berkeman

    Staff: Mentor

  5. edward

    edward 1,004
    Gold Member

    Not all of them are armed, although those close to the border are supposed to be. I would imagine that they have some strict rules in place so as to avoid shooting at a friendly.

    So now who is going to guard the Guard?:grumpy:

    There have been a number of border incursions by armed groups in recent months, some dressed in mexican military uniforms.
    http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewstory.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200612/NAT20061221a.html
     
  6. edward

    edward 1,004
    Gold Member

    It was a Border Patrol site manned by the Guard. Spotting and reporting to the Boarder Patrol is primarily what the Guard is doing. They are not allowed to apprehend anyone. Edit: They are officially, "National Guard entrance identification teams."
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2007
  7. berkeman

    Staff: Mentor

    Hmmm. That's a good point. It would be a real drag to be out rabbit hunting near the border and get hosed by a startled troop that you didn't see. :eek:
     
  8. BobG

    BobG 2,357
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    Immigration and securing the border are normally pretty low profile topics among the public. The issues spiked to the top of everyone's list momentarily and now they're sliding back to their normal spot. Tancredo will wear himself out trying to fan the flames high enough for anyone to care whether he runs for President or not.

    A smart politician could push through some sort of sensible immigration bill (similar to the McCain-Kennedy bill) if they cared enough to do it when it wouldn't garner them headlines.
     
  9. Very True. I think what bothers me most - are the lies (and spin) about illegal immigration! At some point, all the economic numbers, costs data, etc. must be settled. They (Washington) are merely sidelining any corrective action on this problem, and dumping its consequences onto the next generation of Americans! If you did so in business, you'd be fired or run out of town! In Washington, there are few to no consequences for failed leadership.
     
  10. I am wondering if I could get the Guard to do the same as an observer in my next "brain surgery." It was a real fiasco in 1992. Oh - but our government doesn't involve itself in those matters either. They leave it to you to file a civil action, then criticize you if you do. Sound familiar??
     
  11. edward

    edward 1,004
    Gold Member

    When armed illegals can cross the border and force National Guard personnel from their positions, it is time to wake up the politicians. As I mentioned before, who are we supposed to send out to guard the Natioanl Guard?
     
  12. berkeman

    Staff: Mentor

    I still would like to read their ROE. That's at the core of the troubling part of this incident.
     
  13. edward

    edward 1,004
    Gold Member

    This happened close to the border so the Guardsmen would have been armed.
    They are allowed to use their weapons to defend themselves against an armed aggressor.

    To date there had never been a situation where this was necessary, at least with the NG. It is very unlikely that the Guardsmen had their weapons in their hands. It is has been reported that the intruders did. In the old lingo, the bad guys got the drop on them.

    According to my local news, On Wednesday night two Guardsmen apparently decided to flee when suddenly confronted by twelve armed men. They made the right choice.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2007
  14. berkeman

    Staff: Mentor

    Well, I obviously wasn't there. But if I were at that station and got surprised, I doubt that I would have run very far before firing accurately. And sure as hell, after this incident, I would be much more ready to react. And sure as hell, the COs involved better make sire that they are ready and that the ROE are appropriate.

    Easy for me to say I guess, sitting here in my living room. But in addition to the HAM emergency preparedness notes in my footer, I'm also CERT, ERT, and Guard-Card, so running from the bad guys is wrong IMO.
     
  15. edward

    edward 1,004
    Gold Member

  16. berkeman

    Staff: Mentor

    Something has to be wrong about that account. Even us Security Guards/EEs/ERTs have ROE that involves shooting in those situations.
     
  17. edward

    edward 1,004
    Gold Member

    The latest local news indicates that the National Guard is to back off to avoid an armed conflict if possible. The Gardsmen saw the armed intruders approaching in time to follow that directive.

    This information came from a member of the Minute Man Group who is in touch with the NG.
     
  18. Really? What happened to observe and report? It only seems logical to me that if there is no immediate threat to life or property (or in this case national security as well) then the best course of action is to back off and keep an eye on them, call in back up just incase. No one was shot or hurt. No shots were fired. Seems like the perfect and proper outcome based on the reaction. If there was a show of force things would have likely gotten pretty messy.
     
  19. berkeman

    Staff: Mentor

    People with guns drawn running at you changes things. I haven't gone back and re-read the articles, but maybe their ROE were not to fire unless fired upon. I'm glad that nobody was hurt.
     
  20. edward

    edward 1,004
    Gold Member


    The big problem is that no one seems to want to divulge the exact ROE. The situation is still under investigation because a lot of local people are angry that the NG was apparently following orders when they retreated.

    These armed men will end up shooting someone. The drug dealers are getting desperate to move shipments through AZ since CA has been pretty much sealed off.

    It is hard to get recent statistics, but it is evident that the coyotes and drug dealers are getting bolder.

    From 2005:
    http://www.tucsonweekly.com/gbase/Currents/Content?oid=oid:77018

    This year a forrest ranger was shot and killed. These guys still have to go out there and do their jobs. The same goes for Game and Fish officers. Most of them who must go close to the border are now carrying M 16's in their vehicles.
     
  21. edward

    edward 1,004
    Gold Member

    There has been another incident involving National Guard troops. This time, according to my local paper, a group of illegals started pelting a Guard outpost with rocks.

    The Guardsmen withdrew from the scene and called the Border patrol. The intruders broke the windows out of the NG vehicle and were back in Mexico before the Border Patrol arrived.

    As far as weapons, the Guardsmen do have them, but can not engage unless the situation warrants it. ??? Another oddity in the newspaper article stated that the Guardsmen are issued three magazines with thirty rounds each. The odd thing is that the troops are usually in groups of four at the outposts near the border.???

    Last summer a Blackhawk chopper landed east of Nogales to drop off Border Patrol agents. The agents spread out chasing illegals. One of the illegals started hurling rocks at the Blackhawk.

    There was no sign of damage until the chopper tried to take off. Then the pilot quickly realized that a rock had bent the rotor pitch control mechanism.
    The pilot had to make a hard drop to the ground. (not quite a hard landing) A mechanic had to be flown in to repair the Blackhawk.

    This type of thing is in the local papers quite frequently. I just wanted to share.:rolleyes:
     
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