Society and getting assaulted in jail

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The discussion centers around the harsh realities of prison life, particularly for individuals convicted of DUI offenses. A user shares a harrowing account of repeated sexual assaults and violence experienced in prison, raising questions about the treatment of inmates and the systemic issues within the prison system. The conversation highlights a divide in opinions regarding the treatment of prisoners, with some arguing that inmates deserve humane treatment regardless of their crimes, while others believe that punishment should be severe to deter criminal behavior. The notion that prison conditions serve as a deterrent is debated, with some suggesting that the brutality of prison life may reinforce criminal behavior rather than rehabilitate. There are calls for better protective measures for inmates, but a significant portion of the discussion reflects a belief that those who commit crimes, particularly repeat offenders, should face harsh consequences without sympathy. The dialogue also touches on the broader societal implications of how prisoners are viewed and treated, emphasizing a need for reform in the justice system to address both punishment and rehabilitation.
  • #51
cyrusabdollahi said:
And what about those people that will commit crimes for the first time? How do you stop that? It just makes no sense.
One cannot prevent that in any other manner than a higher level of education. It is highly desirable independently of the problem at hand.

Unless you want tom cruise running your society. :wink:
I've seen this movie, yes :smile:
What a terrible thought you gave me : Tom Cruise as president :frown: :cry:
Only in the US of A actors become presidents :-p :wink:
 
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  • #52
Evo said:
It's doubtful that a person that commited a menial crime would be sent to a maximum security prison. That is where the really bad criminals are sent and that is where the type of things that the OP describes go on. Although it's likely to happen in any prison, someone convicted of a white collar crime is going to end up in a country club prison where that kind of behavior is unlikely.

Also, a local or county jail isn't like a federal prison.

This goes some way to make prison a more palatable idea for criminals, staggered degrees of imprisonment.
This guys life is over. 3 DUI's = no life gutted.
Someone should make a poll, whether this guy will kill himself inside prison, outside prison or serve his time and be 'fine'

 
  • #53
I haven't read all the posts, but I think for anyone that drinks and drives this is great punishment. I would have recommended it after the first conviction though. People that drink and drive make me sick.
 
  • #54
This thread reminds me of something a judge said in the movie "office space." :smile:

To clarify for anyone who did not see it: The main characters stole a lot of money from their company (by mistake, sorta) and the guy is having a dream and the judge looks down at him seriously and says sternly "I hereby sentence you to ten years in a federal pound me in the a-- prison."

I suppose it does show that it is sort of expected in the very tough prisons, as evo pointed out. I wonder how hard the guards work to try to prevent it from happening.
 
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  • #55
mattmns said:
I haven't read all the posts, but I think for anyone that drinks and drives this is great punishment. I would have recommended it after the first conviction though. People that drink and drive make me sick.

It was my understanding that it was the first conviction, isn't it 3 strikes and you're out, for americans?


Over here they are more lenient still, especially for young offenders(sometimes they have a catalogue of offenses with no conviction) .


I personally think the prison sentence(minus gang rape) is harsh enough in this case, seeing as there is no actual desire to harm others and all.
 
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  • #56
dontdisturbmycircles said:
But does society benefit when they are released? The point should be to try to give prisoners motivation to become a productive part of society, not a hardened criminal who has been sexually abused and psychologically tortured. (although of course it should not resemble a community college, it has to be a punishment.) You should look at it from that point of view too I think. Also, I would guess that the people that tend to be abused are the people who are not as "hardcore", such as people who stole from the grocery store, you think that they should be raped without mercy?

Honestly if they are in prison I just don't really care what happens to them. Prison is pretty easy to avoid, don't do anything wrong, don't cry to me if you end up in jail and bad things happen to you, chances are if you are in jail you did something bad to someone else. I am in no way condoning what is going on in there but at the same time it is pretty easily avoided (ie don't commit a crime) and I have very little sympathy for those in the situation.
 
  • #57
verty said:
Prison is to rehabilitate, Moridin. You've assumed what you wanted to show.



Wrong.

Prison is to keep criminals away from where they can hurt everyone else. Prison isn't about helping criminals--its about protecting innocents.

Granted, that view is entirely reconcilable with a much more humane approach to prison management.
 
  • #58
Prisons are a form of school. Put in a punk a$$ kid, get out a hardened trained criminal.

Wonderful places prisons, I think we need more.
 
  • #59
Integral said:
Prisons are a form of school. Put in a punk a$$ kid, get out a hardened trained criminal.

Wonderful places prisons, I think we need more.
surely gas chambers would be safer in this regard, but that's a big no-no, so we'll have to limit ourselves to prisons so far.
 
  • #60
FranzNietzsche, if prison was to 'keep criminals away' then they would never be released. They are released which implies the purpose is rehabilitation.

One more thing. If you want to find evil, you only need to look for the words "I don't care". That attitude is the root of all evil.

Cyrus, the system ain't broke? Your glasses are so rose-coloured, they fail to resemble reality.
 
  • #61
Good point, Whatta. The death penalty is considered by many to be a no-no, especially because death is often "too good", so we condemn people to live in those prisons with no possibility of parole. Oh, well at least the system ain't broke.
 
  • #62
verty I thought main argument against death penalty was like "oh noes what if system errs and innocent gets killed".
 
  • #63
verty said:
FranzNietzsche, if prison was to 'keep criminals away' then they would never be released. They are released which implies the purpose is rehabilitation.

Then you would have to agree that prisons fail miserably. If you don't, then...well, let's not get into name calling.

On the contrary, the release of prisoners is a recognition that rehabilitation can happen, that people can atone for their mistakes and turn over a new leaf, as it were. But that doesn't happen often.

The idea that prisons are for rehabilitation is silly. Historically, it makes no sense. What has been the purpose behind detention centers in modern times: WWII, Japanese Americans interred out of fear they were spies. Modern-day guantanamo bay--people imprisoned out fear they might be terrorists. People held captive out of fear they will hurt others (not necessarily a justified fear, but that's not the point). Why were the jews rounded up and detained by the Nazis? Out of fear they were a threat to everyone else. Why were pollitical dissidents in russia set to the siberian gulag? To stop them from inciting unrest. Why were french political dissidents sent to devil's island? To stop them from causing unrest. Why were the worst criminals sent to alcatraz? To keep them from escaping to the world where they might commit more crimes. Of course, an equal list can be made for the argument that the purpose of prisons is punishment, most of them centering on how awful prisons have been over the centuries. But you can't make such a case for prisons being for rehabilitation.

The entire idea of a prison goes against the idea of rehabilitation. Holding smoeone against their will goes against the entire idea, unless you assume their will is flawed due to mental illness in which case they should be in a mental hospital, which is intended for rehabilitation, not a prison.

The idea that prisons are for rehabilitation is a fantasy with no basis in reality. You can reasonably argue that prisons SHOULD be for rehabilitation, but you can't argue that they are.

One more thing. If you want to find evil, you only need to look for the words "I don't care". That attitude is the root of all evil.

Yes, that was the attitude behind all the evil atrocities of history. Oh, wait. Nope.

Cyrus, the system ain't broke? Your glasses are so rose-coloured, they fail to resemble reality.

Oh the system is broken, its just a question of how its actually broken.
 
  • #64
humanino said:
We cannot accept torture in prison. Torture can only be justified at war times. Then of course, I should not bring that here, because it all depends what you call war...

What exactly did you mean with this statement?

humanino said:
Did you ever consider that it would be better to execute death-sentenced prisonner on the public place, on Sunday, and that everybody comes and enjoy the show, including children. That is a very good lesson for children if they want to learn that they must behave. It would be much more efficient than execute those people at 6am, where nobody can see it.

Old school ! :devil: :-p

dontdisturbmycircles said:
In order to prevent some of these things I think that you would need to assign a prison guard for each person, but that isn't very practical at all.

Yeah, it's definitely not practical, specially not from the financial viewpoint.

cyrusabdollahi said:
So I can get into a rage and kill 10 people and just have someone monitor me? That makes no sense.

Theoretically, the monitoring idea wouldn't apply equally for every type of crime.

humanino said:
One cannot prevent that in any other manner than a higher level of education. It is highly desirable independently of the problem at hand.

Actually, education is not the key, as is often thought. If it is a key, it's a 'second' key. The 'first' one is people net getting enough love. This may sound hippie-like, but it's damn true. Raise someone in an ambient of hatred, and you'll produce a monster, regardless of its education.
 
  • #65
The prison system is a system of punishment for those who have commited crimes, we've established that. The prison system in a lot of countries does not work properly because the prison culture is unchecked and you get examples of gang rape like these. Thus as Integral states prisons become more of a breeding ground for criminals than a rehab. If we therefore impose the same laws in prison as we appropriate in society (and I'm not going to say how we could begin to do this) then I feel a far greater proportion of prisoners will not re-offend when they are released because their bad attitudes have not been allowed to grow in prison.

If you state you do not care about prisoners in prison then I'm sorry but you really are making a rod for your own back. You treat people like crap and they're going to lash straight back at you. If you are hypocritical enough to allow serious criminal acts to take place in prison then you are going to produce disillusioned people angry at a society that's given up on them and they will most likely comit more crimes.
 
  • #66
Kurdt said:
If you are hypocritical enough to allow serious criminal acts to take place in prison then you are going to produce disillusioned people angry at a society that's given up on them and they will most likely comit more crimes.

This is the whole point of the discussion.
 
  • #67
radou said:
What exactly did you mean with this statement?
Ehr... :rolleyes:
Let's say that this is out of topic o:)
 
  • #68
radou said:
Actually, education is not the key, as is often thought. If it is a key, it's a 'second' key. The 'first' one is people net getting enough love. This may sound hippie-like, but it's damn true. Raise someone in an ambient of hatred, and you'll produce a monster, regardless of its education.
Indeed, you are right :approve:
 
  • #69
please, do not paint criminals as if they "made a mistake". it is not a mistake, it is their choise to commit a crime. you can't fix it neither with punishment nor with rehabilitation. they simply have "guts", or "what it takes", to break the law, even though they know they might get caught and put into prison. so, they are to "most likely commit more crimes" even before they get imprisoned.
 
  • #70
whatta said:
please, do not paint criminals as if they "made a mistake". it is not a mistake, it is their choise to commit a crime. you can't fix it neither with punishment nor with rehabilitation. they simply have "guts", or "what it takes", to break the law, even though they know they might get caught and put into prison. so, they are to "most likely commit more crimes" even before they get imprisoned.

Like I've said before, you are creating problems for yourself that you needn't necessarily have. Of course not all criminals can be reformed and not all will refrain from re-offending but if you abandon them completely or turn a blind eye to the 'culture' of prisons and do nothing then don't wonder about your soaring crime rates.
 
  • #71
whatta said:
"guts", or "what it takes"
Yeah, right :smile:
Well, my opinion is that it takes more to learn to respect the law, than just not get to the level where you understand what it is to be a grown up man. :devil:
 
  • #72
yeah, right, indeed. "grown up men" never get caught (instead they spend wonderful weekends with family on hawaii).
 
  • #73
One way of avoiding inhumane treatment such as rape would be to have more security, more checks and more separation and confinement of prisoners. But wait, isn't that actually more inhumane?

Rape in prisons have to do with power and knocking down opponents. If there is no struggle for power, then there is no need to struggle for power.
 
  • #74
Moridin said:
One way of avoiding inhumane treatment such as rape would be to have more security, more checks and more separation and confinement of prisoners. But wait, isn't that actually more inhumane?

No it isn't. It's only very expensive.
 
  • #75
radou said:
No it isn't. It's only very expensive.

Yes, it is. Instead of freely moving about at the prison in larger designated areas, as well as being outside and having a lot of activity, they are confined to solitude with no external stimuli at all. I would call that less humane.
 
  • #76
Moridin said:
Yes, it is. Instead of freely moving about at the prison in larger designated areas, as well as being outside and having a lot of activity, they are confined to solitude with no external stimuli at all. I would call that less humane.

So, you intend prison to be some sort of day-care centre?
 
  • #77
Moridin said:
Yes, it is. Instead of freely moving about at the prison in larger designated areas, as well as being outside and having a lot of activity, they are confined to solitude with no external stimuli at all. I would call that less humane.

Since we're talking about ideal non-existing prison systems, I assumed automatically that each prisoner shall have an area large enough to move freely as much as he wants, which makes the whole thing humane. :-p

(Of course, wellness centers, saunas, tennis courts, and private gold channels on TV are included. :biggrin:)
 
  • #78
verty said:
Prison is to rehabilitate, Moridin. You've assumed what you wanted to show.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I'm certainly not a softie when it comes to punishing criminals, but prisons exist to reform criminals, not to destroy their lives. Most prisoners aren't serving life sentences, which means they'll be rejoining us someday. Do you want them to come out as born-again good citizens, or as AIDS infected animals who can't function normally?
 
  • #79
radou said:
Yeah, it's definitely not practical, specially not from the financial viewpoint.


Yea, I definitely agree with you here. :smile:

----

There has to be a balance between rehabilitation opportunities and punishment. Too much punishment didn't work, I think that is why they got rid of the really old prisons in America where it was solitary confinement 24/7 and they all went nuts, I could probably find links, I saw a program about it on the history channel. This is what is behind the idea of the prisoners working on farmers fields and stuff for $0.10 an hour or whatever, they learn to work hard but it's obviously also a punishment.

If it was just punishment, when people are released they would be worse than when they went in... not good.
 
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  • #80
Well, I think the obvious solution for this sort of thing is forced castration of inmates. :devil:
 
  • #81
Tom, actually that's not a bad idea, especially for rapists. I'd be willing to support that. Not for all prisoners though, but for those who rape.

Well, it might happen that convicted rapists turn out to be innocent, so perhaps that's not a great idea, but for those who rape in prison, evidence would be easy to come by.
 
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  • #82
verty said:
Tom, actually that's not a bad idea, especially for rapists. I'd be willing to support that. Not for all prisoners though, but for those who rape.

so there is use for the guillotine in modern society.
 
  • #83
Tom Mattson said:
Well, I think the obvious solution for this sort of thing is forced castration of inmates. :devil:

Hey, what do you do with female rappists ? :-p (it does exist)

Kurdt said:
so there is use for the guillotine in modern society.
:smile: :smile: :smile:
I spit coffee on my screen :rolleyes:
 
  • #84
humanino said:
Hey, what do you do with female rappists ? :-p (it does exist)

:
Is that a proposition? :wink: :smile:
 
  • #85
Kurdt said:
so there is use for the guillotine in modern society.

Ouch. :smile:
 
  • #86
humanino said:
Hey, what do you do with female rappists ? :-p (it does exist)

Expanding insulating foam o:)

(Ok even I don't like that one)

I believe the seriousness of this thread has been incarcerated and is currently being repeatedly anally raped.
 
  • #87
Kurdt said:
I believe the seriousness of this thread has been incarcerated and is currently being repeatedly anally raped.

...as shall the forum guidelines be, unless posts in this thread stop being so...pictoresque. :biggrin:

But I guess it's inevitable.
 
  • #88
imaplanck said:
Is that a proposition? :wink: :smile:
Usually female rappists use tools. Maybe you did not quite get the picture. :devil:
 
  • #89
humanino said:
Usually female rappists use tools. Maybe you did not quite get the picture. :devil:
rawr



^^
 
  • #90
humanino said:
Usually female rappists use tools. Maybe you did not quite get the picture. :devil:

I for one, am still not completely perturbed.:smile:
 
  • #91
Replace "DUI" with "schizophrenia." The largest de facto mental institutions in the U.S. are the Los Angeles County Jail and Rikers Island in New York. The patients of the 50's became the homeless of the 70's became the inmates of the 90's.

For those of you who know about psychosis, a horrifying, no-fault condition by itself, imagine being thrown into prison with such a condition, without medication, subject to extreme isolation, assault and suicide. One schizophrenic man took his own life with the only available means - jamming toilet paper down his throat.

Who gives a damn? Few, either Republican or Democrat.
 
  • #92
im wondering what the difference is between being raped in prison and being whipped? we all know prison guards are not supposed to whip/beat/permanently disable/abuse/mutilate prisoners because its an inhumane way to treat a person, but if these things happen to prisoners By prisoners, that's perfectly acceptable somehow? i think not. remember that people are sentanced to consecutive life sentances for violently raping people. there is no excuse for doing this to another person, no matter how much emotional anguish they might have inflicted.

if a person getting systematically raped while in a prison is not a bad thing, i don't understand how cutting the hands off thieves is any different.

what do you think the rapists in prison are going to do then they get out? well raping an actual women would be a great idea when you think about it. they have lots of practice raping people who can resist more then a 130lb woman could, and when they get caught and sentenced to more prison time, why would they care? they don't have to listen to a manager tell them to scrub toilets or risk getting shot while selling drugs any more.
 
  • #93
Is it just me, or is the main point of prison NOT TO:

  1. Reform
  2. Punish
  3. Be nice
  4. Be mean

But instead, to move those societal degenerates away from functional, productive society? Secondary objectives are to keep people in fear of being sent away, and to try and hope if they leave, that they come out functional and productive for society.
 
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  • #94
You can't watch enough of the prisoners enough of the time to stop this. So you need some sort of deterrent. The problems is: they're already in prison. More time in prison isn't nearly as scary because, hey, they're on top.

So you need a worse punishment (like solitary, torture, or death). Of course, all of those are pretty cruel... Do we want to be cruel to seriously misbehaving prisoners?
 
  • #95
Mk said:
Is it just me, or is the main point of prison... to move those societal degenerates away from functional, productive society?
i agree that this is the most basic function of a prison, however i would like to think the institution has evolved some in the past few hundred years.

Mk said:
Secondary objectives are to keep people in fear of being sent away, and to try and hope if they leave, that they come out functional and productive for society
i also agree on this point. i think the modern prison system in western society has no problem fulfilling the primary function and we are now able to focus on these secondary functions as basic roles of the institution. i would like to point out though that i think the 'fear of being sent away' should refer to having limited freedoms and not include the possibility of systematic rape or abuse.
 
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  • #96
sad to see so many hard time fans here
sorry but I expect better from smarter people
but most echo the deep south rednecked ideals of a chaingang

a DUI without hurting anyone
should not land one in a hard core max prison
but a rehab type place without predatory type people
BUT the USA has far tooo many people in prisons
mostly nonviolent types for rule breaking like DUI or drugs
both are not cured by hard time
and should never be mixed with rape
or predatory type people who should be locked up
but not with DUI or drug people

I think prisons are run by nasty people
who care little about those in them
and our culture should ashamed of they way we handle this
we can and should do better
 
  • #97
What intent you have for locking up someone pretty much determines what you'd accept going on in there, or how long you think people should sit there.

Personally, I think neither the punishment idea or the rehabilitation thinking have much force; segregation of dangerous persons (irrespective of such flawed ideas of whether a person was "sane" in a judicial sense or not) is my favoured view.

I don't see any reason why one should wilfully harm others, calling it "punishment"; that's just plain old cruelty dressed up for the occasion.

Nor do I see any sound reason to emancipate individuals one has reason to suspect will harm others. That's dangerously naive.
By default, then, people proven to have harmed others seriously ought to be indefinitely restrained in some sort of manner, until we can be certain they won't do so again.
 
  • #98
ray b said:
a DUI without hurting anyone
should not land one in a hard core max prison
but a rehab type place without predatory type people

I agree. Someone getting repeated DUIs is not likely doing it because they have a criminal intent, but more likely has a substance abuse problem that needs to be treated. It makes no sense at all to lock them up in a maximum security prison with rapists and murderers. Non-violent offenders whose crimes are primarily related to substance abuse problems need a different facility from those who are violent offenders or who actually have criminal intent. Every effort should also be made to identify those violent offenders who have committed their crimes because of treatable mental illnesses (such as schizophrenia, as mentioned above). For some of these people, until treatment is effective, they are every bit as dangerous as hardened criminals, so they may still need a maximum security facility, but that should also mean maximum security FOR the inmates, not FROM the inmates.

If we expect to release people from prison, which we do, then we shouldn't be subjecting them to conditions that return them to society worse off than when they went in. It makes no sense to make them less capable of assimmilating back into society upon their release. That only increases the likelihood of recidivism.

Of course, prison is not meant to be a country club either...we don't want people committing new crimes after leaving because it's a better life for them in prison than out of prison (for some, it is...3 squares and a cot is better than being hungry and sleeping in a cardboard box somewhere). But it needn't be a hell hole either.

Why are these things not changed? Money. It will be expensive to revamp the entire prison system. To treat the mentally ill as mentally ill rather than caging them up and ignoring their illness will require improvements to facilities, increased personnel, and all of the related medical treatment. But, converting a number of prisons to maximum security mental hospitals and treating the root of these people's problems rather than the symptoms would likely go a long way toward reducing recidivism. It would also take a change in mentality about sentencing. Instead of sentences defined by time limits, sentences defined by progress would be better in those cases. When the inmate/patient is on a treatment that is effective, and stabilized, and has had sufficient time to overcome any addictions to the extent they are likely to be able to stay clean once released, then release them. Otherwise, if they are not effectively stabilized, or are resistant to available treatments, then hold them longer, or transfer to a longer term mental hospital for continuation of care.

Trying to get such changes implemented, and the money for them is certainly tough when you have so many people with the attitude that these prisoners are simply the scum of the Earth rather than people with problems that need to be addressed. Some will always be too unsafe to return to society...the murderer or serial rapist who will do it again the moment they miss a few doses of medication, so needs lifelong supervision to ensure they take their medication.

If you treated all those in prison because of mental illness as mentally ill and not criminal, then the only people left to deal with would be those who are more of opportunists and commit crimes because they know/think they can get away with it to get rich quick, such as con artists, drug dealers (not users), and white collar criminals.
 
  • #99
ray b said:
a DUI without hurting anyone
should not land one in a hard core max prison
but a rehab type place without predatory type people
Don't think it did! And they do make you do a rehab type place, a course, even in many cases that you aren't I drunkard or addict.
 
  • #100
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070214/ap_on_re_us/scalia_daughter_dui

WHEATON, Ill. - U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's daughter was arrested this week and charged with driving under the influence of alcohol and child endangerment, officials said Wednesday.
She will likely not go to jail or prison.

The situation in the OP seems to be one of 'cruel and unusal' punishment, and that has been a persistent problem as long as I can remember. For most, it's out of sight, out of mind. To change it would require politicians with moral conviction, or a society with a moral conviction to make the system less retributive and more penitential.
 
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