Society and getting assaulted in jail

[verty]

Good point, Whatta. The death penalty is considered by many to be a no-no, especially because death is often "too good", so we condemn people to live in those prisons with no possibility of parole. Oh, well at least the system ain't broke.

 

[whatta]

verty I thought main argument against death penalty was like "oh noes what if system errs and innocent gets killed".

 

[franznietzsche]

FranzNietzsche, if prison was to 'keep criminals away' then they would never be released. They are released which implies the purpose is rehabilitation.

Then you would have to agree that prisons fail miserably. If you don't, then...well, let's not get into name calling.

On the contrary, the release of prisoners is a recognition that rehabilitation can happen, that people can atone for their mistakes and turn over a new leaf, as it were. But that doesn't happen often.

The idea that prisons are for rehabilitation is silly. Historically, it makes no sense. What has been the purpose behind detention centers in modern times: WWII, Japanese Americans interred out of fear they were spies. Modern-day guantanamo bay--people imprisoned out fear they might be terrorists. People held captive out of fear they will hurt others (not necessarily a justified fear, but that's not the point). Why were the jews rounded up and detained by the Nazis? Out of fear they were a threat to everyone else. Why were pollitical dissidents in russia set to the siberian gulag? To stop them from inciting unrest. Why were french political dissidents sent to devil's island? To stop them from causing unrest. Why were the worst criminals sent to alcatraz? To keep them from escaping to the world where they might commit more crimes. Of course, an equal list can be made for the argument that the purpose of prisons is punishment, most of them centering on how awful prisons have been over the centuries. But you can't make such a case for prisons being for rehabilitation.

The entire idea of a prison goes against the idea of rehabilitation. Holding smoeone against their will goes against the entire idea, unless you assume their will is flawed due to mental illness in which case they should be in a mental hospital, which is intended for rehabilitation, not a prison.

The idea that prisons are for rehabilitation is a fantasy with no basis in reality. You can reasonably argue that prisons SHOULD be for rehabilitation, but you can't argue that they are.

One more thing. If you want to find evil, you only need to look for the words "I don't care". That attitude is the root of all evil.

Yes, that was the attitude behind all the evil atrocities of history. Oh, wait. Nope.

Cyrus, the system ain't broke? Your glasses are so rose-coloured, they fail to resemble reality.

Oh the system is broken, its just a question of how its actually broken.

 

[radou]

We cannot accept torture in prison. Torture can only be justified at war times. Then of course, I should not bring that here, because it all depends what you call war...

What exactly did you mean with this statement?

Did you ever consider that it would be better to execute death-sentenced prisonner on the public place, on Sunday, and that everybody comes and enjoy the show, including children. That is a very good lesson for children if they want to learn that they must behave. It would be much more efficient than execute those people at 6am, where nobody can see it.

Old school !

In order to prevent some of these things I think that you would need to assign a prison guard for each person, but that isn't very practical at all.

Yeah, it's definitely not practical, specially not from the financial viewpoint.

So I can get into a rage and kill 10 people and just have someone monitor me? That makes no sense.

Theoretically, the monitoring idea wouldn't apply equally for every type of crime.

One cannot prevent that in any other manner than a higher level of education. It is highly desirable independently of the problem at hand.

Actually, education is not the key, as is often thought. If it is a key, it's a 'second' key. The 'first' one is people net getting enough love. This may sound hippie-like, but it's damn true. Raise someone in an ambient of hatred, and you'll produce a monster, regardless of its education.

 

[Kurdt]

The prison system is a system of punishment for those who have commited crimes, we've established that. The prison system in a lot of countries does not work properly because the prison culture is unchecked and you get examples of gang rape like these. Thus as Integral states prisons become more of a breeding ground for criminals than a rehab. If we therefore impose the same laws in prison as we appropriate in society (and I'm not going to say how we could begin to do this) then I feel a far greater proportion of prisoners will not re-offend when they are released because their bad attitudes have not been allowed to grow in prison.

If you state you do not care about prisoners in prison then I'm sorry but you really are making a rod for your own back. You treat people like crap and they're going to lash straight back at you. If you are hypocritical enough to allow serious criminal acts to take place in prison then you are going to produce disillusioned people angry at a society that's given up on them and they will most likely comit more crimes.

 

[radou]

If you are hypocritical enough to allow serious criminal acts to take place in prison then you are going to produce disillusioned people angry at a society that's given up on them and they will most likely comit more crimes.

This is the whole point of the discussion.

 

[humanino]

What exactly did you mean with this statement?

Ehr...
Let's say that this is out of topic

 

[humanino]

Actually, education is not the key, as is often thought. If it is a key, it's a 'second' key. The 'first' one is people net getting enough love. This may sound hippie-like, but it's damn true. Raise someone in an ambient of hatred, and you'll produce a monster, regardless of its education.

Indeed, you are right

 

[whatta]

please, do not paint criminals as if they "made a mistake". it is not a mistake, it is their choise to commit a crime. you can't fix it neither with punishment nor with rehabilitation. they simply have "guts", or "what it takes", to break the law, even though they know they might get caught and put into prison. so, they are to "most likely commit more crimes" even before they get imprisoned.

 

[Kurdt]

please, do not paint criminals as if they "made a mistake". it is not a mistake, it is their choise to commit a crime. you can't fix it neither with punishment nor with rehabilitation. they simply have "guts", or "what it takes", to break the law, even though they know they might get caught and put into prison. so, they are to "most likely commit more crimes" even before they get imprisoned.

Like I've said before, you are creating problems for yourself that you needn't necessarily have. Of course not all criminals can be reformed and not all will refrain from re-offending but if you abandon them completely or turn a blind eye to the 'culture' of prisons and do nothing then don't wonder about your soaring crime rates.

 

[humanino]

"guts", or "what it takes"

Yeah, right
Well, my opinion is that it takes more to learn to respect the law, than just not get to the level where you understand what it is to be a grown up man.

 

[whatta]

yeah, right, indeed. "grown up men" never get caught (instead they spend wonderful weekends with family on hawaii).

 

[Moridin]

One way of avoiding inhumane treatment such as rape would be to have more security, more checks and more separation and confinement of prisoners. But wait, isn't that actually more inhumane?

Rape in prisons have to do with power and knocking down opponents. If there is no struggle for power, then there is no need to struggle for power.

 

[radou]

One way of avoiding inhumane treatment such as rape would be to have more security, more checks and more separation and confinement of prisoners. But wait, isn't that actually more inhumane?

No it isn't. It's only very expensive.

 

[Moridin]

No it isn't. It's only very expensive.

Yes, it is. Instead of freely moving about at the prison in larger designated areas, as well as being outside and having a lot of activity, they are confined to solitude with no external stimuli at all. I would call that less humane.

 

[cristo]

Yes, it is. Instead of freely moving about at the prison in larger designated areas, as well as being outside and having a lot of activity, they are confined to solitude with no external stimuli at all. I would call that less humane.

So, you intend prison to be some sort of day-care centre?

 

[radou]

Yes, it is. Instead of freely moving about at the prison in larger designated areas, as well as being outside and having a lot of activity, they are confined to solitude with no external stimuli at all. I would call that less humane.

Since we're talking about ideal non-existing prison systems, I assumed automatically that each prisoner shall have an area large enough to move freely as much as he wants, which makes the whole thing humane.

(Of course, wellness centers, saunas, tennis courts, and private gold channels on TV are included. )

 

[quantumdude]

Prison is to rehabilitate, Moridin. You've assumed what you wanted to show.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I'm certainly not a softie when it comes to punishing criminals, but prisons exist to reform criminals, not to destroy their lives. Most prisoners aren't serving life sentences, which means they'll be rejoining us someday. Do you want them to come out as born-again good citizens, or as AIDS infected animals who can't function normally?

 

[dontdisturbmycircles]

Yeah, it's definitely not practical, specially not from the financial viewpoint.

Yea, I definitely agree with you here.

----

There has to be a balance between rehabilitation opportunities and punishment. Too much punishment didn't work, I think that is why they got rid of the really old prisons in America where it was solitary confinement 24/7 and they all went nuts, I could probably find links, I saw a program about it on the history channel. This is what is behind the idea of the prisoners working on farmers fields and stuff for $0.10 an hour or whatever, they learn to work hard but it's obviously also a punishment.

If it was just punishment, when people are released they would be worse than when they went in... not good.

 

[quantumdude]

Well, I think the obvious solution for this sort of thing is forced castration of inmates.

 

[verty]

Tom, actually that's not a bad idea, especially for rapists. I'd be willing to support that. Not for all prisoners though, but for those who rape.

Well, it might happen that convicted rapists turn out to be innocent, so perhaps that's not a great idea, but for those who rape in prison, evidence would be easy to come by.

 

[Kurdt]

Tom, actually that's not a bad idea, especially for rapists. I'd be willing to support that. Not for all prisoners though, but for those who rape.

so there is use for the guillotine in modern society.

 

[humanino]

Well, I think the obvious solution for this sort of thing is forced castration of inmates.

Hey, what do you do with female rappists ? (it does exist)

so there is use for the guillotine in modern society.

I spit coffee on my screen

 

[imaplanck]

Hey, what do you do with female rappists ? (it does exist)

:

Is that a proposition?

 

[radou]

so there is use for the guillotine in modern society.

Ouch.

 

[Kurdt]

Hey, what do you do with female rappists ? (it does exist)

Expanding insulating foam

(Ok even I don't like that one)

I believe the seriousness of this thread has been incarcerated and is currently being repeatedly anally raped.

 

[radou]

I believe the seriousness of this thread has been incarcerated and is currently being repeatedly anally raped.

...as shall the forum guidelines be, unless posts in this thread stop being so...pictoresque.

But I guess it's inevitable.

 

[humanino]

Is that a proposition?

Usually female rappists use tools. Maybe you did not quite get the picture.

 

[Thrice]

Usually female rappists use tools. Maybe you did not quite get the picture.

rawr



^^

 

[imaplanck]

Usually female rappists use tools. Maybe you did not quite get the picture.

I for one, am still not completely perturbed.