Solitons and Heisenberg uncertainty

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    Heisenberg Uncertainty
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of soliton solutions in the context of the Nonlinear Schrödinger equation (NSE) and their relationship to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (HUP). Participants explore whether the existence of solitons, which are localized wave packets, challenges the validity of the uncertainty principle.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if finding a soliton solution implies the uncertainty principle is false, suggesting that solitons allow for simultaneous knowledge of position and momentum.
  • Another participant counters that solitons, while localized, still possess some uncertainty in both position and momentum, indicating that the uncertainty principle is not violated.
  • Some participants clarify that wave packets, including solitons, do not violate the uncertainty principle, as they remain spread over a region in space.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of the Nonlinear Schrödinger equation, with references to the Gross-Pitaevskii equation and its implications for quantum fields rather than single particle wave functions.
  • One participant expresses confusion about the nonlinear Schrödinger equation and its applications, seeking examples of its use.
  • Another participant mentions coherent states as wave packets that minimize the uncertainty relationship, drawing a distinction between solitons and coherent states.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether solitons challenge the uncertainty principle. While some argue that solitons do not violate the principle, others maintain that the ability to determine position and momentum simultaneously suggests a potential conflict. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views present.

Contextual Notes

There are references to the limitations of applying the uncertainty principle to solitons and wave packets, as well as the need to modify interpretations when dealing with quantum fields in the context of the NSE.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and researchers in quantum mechanics, particularly those exploring nonlinear dynamics, solitons, and the foundations of quantum theory.

zetafunction
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if we can find a 'soliton' solution for Nonlinear Schroedinguer equation , then does this imply that Uncertainty principle is false ??

since a soliton is a localized wave packet then i can find the position of the soliton and its momentum so apparently i have violated uncertainty.
 
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Well, a soliton doesn't have to be localized that 'well'. It's only localized within a certain region - it would still 'carry some uncertainty'. The same goes for its momentum distribution. But then again, I'm not too familiar with the nonlinear schroedinger equation ;)
 
Solitons are localized, but they are still spread over some displacement, I don't get how you can violate the HUP.

A wave packet certainly does not violate the HUP, and non-dispersive wave packets certainly do not either.

Also, the Schrödinger equation is linear (otherwise superposition principle would not work), what's the nonlinear Schrödinger equation? o.O
 
Matterwave said:
what's the nonlinear Schrödinger equation? o.O

There are a family of equations called NSE, one of the most common is the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross-Pitaevskii_equation" . The unknown function in these equations is not a single particle wave function but rather a quantum field, so things like superposition, probability interpretation, uncertainty principle, etc must be abandoned or modified for this case.

To OP's question is just as false for solitons as it is for ordinary quantum wave packets, so my advice to the OP would be to further study single particle QM.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If the position and velocity of the whole wave packet means
the position and velocity of one particle, this violates the uncertainty principle.

Because we can determine the position and momentum of the particle at the same time.

And the wave packet is spreading in all space as the particle is moving around and rebounds from the wall.

So the wave packet does not mean a particle.
 
ExactlySolved said:
There are a family of equations called NSE, one of the most common is the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross-Pitaevskii_equation" . The unknown function in these equations is not a single particle wave function but rather a quantum field, so things like superposition, probability interpretation, uncertainty principle, etc must be abandoned or modified for this case.

To OP's question is just as false for solitons as it is for ordinary quantum wave packets, so my advice to the OP would be to further study single particle QM.


That is, i have to present a paper about it in my Master , the question is what are these Nonlinear Schroedinguer equation used for ?? could someone give me an example
 
Last edited by a moderator:
zetafunction said:
if we can find a 'soliton' solution for Nonlinear Schroedinguer equation , then does this imply that Uncertainty principle is false ??

since a soliton is a localized wave packet then i can find the position of the soliton and its momentum so apparently i have violated uncertainty.

I just wanted to mention the Schroedinger's coherent states: they represent wave packets of a constant shape; thay are similar to solitons but are linear combinations of eigenstates (principle of superposition holds). Such states minimize the HU relationship. There applets on internet demonstrating that.

A certain average position R(t) does not mean there is no position spread in a wave packet.

Bob_for_short.
 
zetafunction said:
That is, i have to present a paper about it in my Master , the question is what are these Nonlinear Schroedinguer equation used for ?? could someone give me an example

The Gross-Pitaevski equation is used to describe weakly interacting bosons in an external potential. It can be used to describe bose condensates.
 

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