Solve Scalar Product Problem in Set R of Functions [0,1]

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of a scalar product defined on a set of functions R, specifically those defined on the interval [0,1] with certain constraints on their non-zero points. Participants explore the implications of this scalar product in the context of Euclidean spaces, addressing issues of convergence and ordering of countable domains.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that the scalar product definition may not imply a sum across all pairs due to potential convergence issues, suggesting a parallel summation approach similar to l2.
  • Another participant questions the validity of the scalar product as defined, proposing an alternative formulation that involves the union or intersection of the countable sets of non-zero points.
  • A participant shares a visual representation to clarify their confusion regarding the problem.
  • Further discussion leads to a refinement of the problem statement, agreeing on a scalar product formulation that aligns with intuitive understanding and established behavior in other function spaces.
  • Participants discuss the implications of absolute convergence and its relationship to unconditional convergence, referencing a theorem that connects these concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the definition and validity of the scalar product, with no consensus reached on the best approach to resolve the issues raised regarding convergence and ordering.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the ordering of countable domains and the implications of absolute versus unconditional convergence in the context of the scalar product.

Gear300
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
9
Alright, so we ran into a peculiarity in answering this question.

Let R be the set of all functions f defined on the interval [0,1] such that -

(1) f(t) is nonzero at no more than countably many points t1, t2, . . .
(2) Σi = 1 to ∞ f2(ti) < ∞ .

Define addition of elements and multiplication of elements by scalars in the ordinary way, i.e., (f + g)(t) = f(t) + g(t), (αf)(t) = αf(t). If f and g are two elements of R, nonzero only at the points t1, t2, . . . and t'1, t'2, . . . respectively, define the scalar product of f and g as

(3) (f,g) = Σi,j = 1 to ∞ f(ti)g(t'j) .

Prove that this scalar product makes R into a Euclidean space.

By the looks of it, (3) is not referring to a sum across all pairs (i,j), since that may induce (absolute) convergence issues for certain elements in the set, where it might not be possible for them to have a finite norm. So we figured that the sum (3) is such that i and j run in parallel across Z+, like it would be in l2.
The peculiarity we found next is in the ordering of the countable domain of points with non-zero image. It may not be well-ordered for some functions, and even if you were to assume only well-ordered domains, there can be several different countable orderings (given that the sums of functions are included). One possibility we considered is if f has smaller ordering than g, we can generalize the sum (3) so that it only goes up to the ordering of f (like we would if f had a finite domain and g had a countable domain). But even so, the list of plausible orderings goes a long way in [0,1], and then there is a problem with resolving one of the properties of the scalar product:

(iv) (f , g+h) = (f , g) + (f , h)

Typically, proving (iv) would involve showing that (f , g+h) remains absolutely convergent. But the problem is how to consider the domain of g+h in the left expression as opposed to the individual domains of g and h in the right expression. In any case, we're stuck.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Where does the question come from? The scalar product doesn't seem to make sense.
What I could imagine is $$(f,g) = \sum_{k=1}^{\infty} f(s_k) g(s_k)$$ where the sk are the union of ti and t'i. Or the intersection, doesn't make a difference here.
 
So for completion, we have managed to prune the problem statement to something doable. Altogether, it works when considering mfb's statement of the scalar product -

mfb said:
What I could imagine is $$(f,g) = \sum_{k=1}^{\infty} f(s_k) g(s_k)$$ where the sk are the union of ti and t'i. Or the intersection, doesn't make a difference here.

- which is the intuitive way of looking that things, since that is how the scalar product in C2[a,b] behaves. The general idea is that -

Gear300 said:
(2) Σi = 1 to ∞ f2(ti) < ∞ .

- is an instance of absolute convergence, where absolute convergence implies unconditional convergence. Then by http://math.uga.edu/%7Epete/3100supp.pdf, Chapter 2 . Section 9 . pg 89 . Theorem 2.52:

For a : NR an ordinary sequence and A ∈ R, the following are equivalent:
i. The unordered sum Σn ∈ Z+ an is convergent, with sum A.
ii. The series Σn = 0 to ∞ an is unconditionally convergent, with sum A.

So given any countable (un)ordering of points of non-zero image, so long as there exists a reordering ω that is absolutely convergent, then everything should fit together.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
5K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 36 ·
2
Replies
36
Views
6K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K