Solving a nasty set of equations

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Mr.Miyagi
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Set
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a set of equations derived from a geometrical problem involving the lengths of tangents between two circles. Participants are exploring the possibility of finding an analytical solution for the equations that relate the variables x, y, r, and θ.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a set of equations and expresses uncertainty about finding an analytical solution, suggesting that a solution must exist due to the geometrical nature of the problem.
  • Another participant suggests rewriting trigonometric functions in terms of tan(θ) to simplify the equations.
  • A different participant attempts to manipulate the equations but struggles to find a substitution that simplifies the problem, indicating a lack of clarity on how to solve for all three variables.
  • One participant points out the importance of trigonometric identities, specifically sec²(θ) = tan²(θ) + 1, as a potential simplification tool.
  • Another participant acknowledges the oversight regarding the identity and expresses difficulty in expressing θ as a function of r, correcting their earlier statement about r being a constant.
  • A participant questions the geometric definitions of the circles involved, asking if they are concentric and suggesting alternative coordinate transformations.
  • One participant clarifies their geometric setup with a drawing and provides additional details about the lengths and angles involved in the problem.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not appear to reach a consensus on how to proceed with the problem, and multiple competing views on the approach to solving the equations remain evident.

Contextual Notes

There are indications of missing assumptions regarding the geometric configuration of the circles and the relationships between the variables. The discussion also reflects unresolved mathematical steps and the complexity of the relationships among x, y, r, and θ.

Mr.Miyagi
Messages
47
Reaction score
0
Suppose I have the following set of equations
[tex]x=3\pi r-r-2\sin\theta[/tex]
[tex]y=r-2\cos\theta[/tex]
[tex]\tan\theta=y/x[/tex]
with r as a constant

How would I go about finding out if an analytical solution exists? There must be a solution, as I distilled the equations from a fairly straightforward geometrical problem that I conjured up.
I just can't seem to find it.

The geometrical problem is basically finding the length of the inner tangent of two circles, between the points where the tangent and the circles touch plus parts of the circles. It's length would be [tex]\sqrt{x^2+y^2}[/tex] and the parts of the circle have a length [tex]2\theta r[/tex]. I hope this makes sense.
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
Hi Mr.Miyag! :smile:

(have a theta: θ :wink:)

Rewrite sinθ and cosθ in terms of tanθ,

then convert them to an expression in y/x, and solve. :wink:
 
Hi:)

I still don't see how I can solve for all three variables.
[tex]\sin\theta=\tan\theta\cos\theta=\cos\theta\frac{y}{x}[/tex]
[tex]\cos\theta=\tan\theta\frac{\cos^2\theta}{\sin\theta}=\tan\theta\cot\theta\cos\theta=\cot\theta\cos\theta\frac{y}{x}[/tex]
then
[tex]x=(3\pi-1)r-2\cos\theta\frac{y}{x}[/tex]
[tex]y=r- 2\cot\theta\cos\theta\frac{y}{x}[/tex]
I don't see a substitution that simplifies things.
 
Hi Mr.Miyagi! :smile:

(what happened to that θ i gave you? :redface:)
Mr.Miyagi said:
… I don't see a substitution that simplifies things.

You need to learn your trigonometric identities …

in particular, sec2θ = tan2θ + 1 :wink:
 
(What's up with the theta?:-p)

Ah, I overlooked the identity. I can express x as a function of y and vice versa, with the trig identity now. But it doesn't seem to help me in finding θ as a function of r.(I shouldn't have said r is a constant. It is just a variable).
I feel I'm overlooking something really obvious, but I can't seem to figure it out.
 
I don't quite understand the geometry you are trying to explain. How are these circles defined again? Are they concentric.

Also, if your x,y,r,and theta are both the coordinates, you could use any of the equations that do {x,y}-->{r,theta} and visa versa.

For example,

x = r Cos[theta]
y = r Sin[theta]
 
I apologize for the poor choice of variable names. I've made a drawing to explain what I was talking about. It's in the attachment.
The line GH would be our x, DH would be our y, the radius of the circles is our r and the angles denoted apha are our theta.
It is also known that the line BC has length [tex](3\pi-1)r[/tex]
Now I'd like to know the length of the line DG and the angle of alpha.
knotpart.jpg
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 36 ·
2
Replies
36
Views
6K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
959
  • · Replies 33 ·
2
Replies
33
Views
5K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K