Spatial curvature - effect on objects

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter nutgeb
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Curvature
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the effects of spatial curvature on physical objects, particularly focusing on a hypothetical scenario involving a large wagon wheel moving toward a black hole. Participants explore the implications of changing spatial geometry on the internal stresses and dimensions of the wheel, considering both inelastic and elastic properties of the materials involved.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes how a wagon wheel moving through a spatial curvature gradient may experience internal stresses due to the changing background geometry, leading to deformation or fragmentation of the wheel.
  • Another participant suggests that if the wheel components are stretchy or compressible, the deformation or fragmentation could be reduced or avoided entirely, indicating a conditionality based on material properties.
  • A participant proposes that disassembling the wheel into small pieces near the black hole and then moving them away would result in an inability to reassemble the wheel into its original shape due to the changes in background spatial curvature.
  • A later reply reiterates the previous point about disassembling the wheel, questioning whether there is consensus on the conclusion drawn from this scenario.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of spatial curvature on the wheel's structure, with some proposing alternative scenarios that could mitigate deformation. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the overall correctness of the initial claims and whether there is consensus on the conclusions drawn.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not fully explored the implications of material properties on the deformation of the wheel, nor have they resolved the complexities introduced by the concept of Born Rigidity in this context.

nutgeb
Messages
294
Reaction score
1
My understanding is that a physical object moving through a spatial curvature gradient (as distinguished from spacetime curvature gradient) will not automatically experience an internally stress-free change in its physical dimensions consistent with the changing background spatial geometry. But the changing spatial geometry can introduce irresistible internal stresses in the object.

Consider a VERY large, simple wagon wheel (with rim, spokes and hub) in free fall inward toward the event horizon of a BH. The wagon wheel was originally constructed very far from the BH. It's a supermassive BH, so the tidal effects are not important near the horizon. (Also, assume that the wheel is free falling at much less than the BH's escape velocity.)

As the radial distance from the wheel to the BH decreases, the spatial curvature progressively increases. Increasing spatial curvature causes the proper length of the wheel's spokes to become longer relative to the circumference of the rim; or it can be thought of as causing the circumference of the rim to decrease relative to the length of the spokes. The circumference increasingly becomes < 2\pi r.

The wheel's own geometry does not change automatically, in a stress-free way, along with the changing background spatial geometry. However, the changing spatial geometry introduces inexorable internal stresses into the wheel. The wheel was constructed (in essentially flat space) with its circumference equal to 2 \pi times its proper radius. But such a 2\pi r planar object cannot exist in space that has significantly positively curved geometry. Therefore, stresses will be introduced that cause the wheel's spokes and hub to deform (bend) out of the plane (causing the wheel to become bowl-shaped), or cause the wheel to fragment (break apart). It's like projecting the surface of a globe's hemisphere onto flat paper -- gaps will appear in the circumference.

Conversely, if the wheel originally was constructed near the BH (in highly curved space), and then is moved away from it, its original circumference was < 2 \pi r. Therefore the stresses resulting from the curvature gradient will cause the rim of the wheel to deform out of the plane, or will fragment the wheel. In this case it's like trying to wrap a flat sheet of cardboard around the hemispherical surface of a globe -- there will be extra material at the outer edge of the cardboard that can't lie flat without folding.

Is this description correct?
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
I should have qualified my examples with the condition that the wheel components are completely inelastic. If on the other hand the wheel components are stretchy/compressible, the wheel's deformation out of the plane, or fragmentation, could be reduced or avoided entirely.
 
Any Born Rigidity objections to this scenario can be rendered insignificant by disassembling the very large wheel into small pieces near the BH, and then individually moving them away from the BH. When it is later reassembled far from the BH, it will prove impossible to fit the pieces back into the wheel's original shape, due to the fact that the background spatial curvature has changed while the shapes and sizes of the pieces have not.
 
nutgeb said:
Any Born Rigidity objections to this scenario can be rendered insignificant by disassembling the very large wheel into small pieces near the BH, and then individually moving them away from the BH. When it is later reassembled far from the BH, it will prove impossible to fit the pieces back into the wheel's original shape, due to the fact that the background spatial curvature has changed while the shapes and sizes of the pieces have not.
So no one disagrees with my conclusion, particularly as stated in the quote above?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 39 ·
2
Replies
39
Views
4K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
5K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
5K