Special Relativity: A^μ_ν Differences Explained

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Discussion Overview

The discussion focuses on the differences between various notations for components of tensors in the context of special relativity, specifically addressing the expressions A^{\mu}_{\nu}, A^{\hspace{0.2cm} \mu}_{\nu}, and A^{\mu}_{\hspace{0.2cm} \nu}. Participants explore the implications of index placement, the relationship between tensors and matrices, and the conventions for raising and lowering indices.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that A^{\mu}_{\nu} and A^{\hspace{0.2cm} \mu}_{\nu} denote components of a 2nd-rank tensor and can be manipulated using metric components g_{\mu \nu} and g^{\mu \nu} for lowering and raising indices.
  • There is a caution against using A^{\mu}_{\nu} without clear horizontal placement of indices, as it may lead to confusion unless the tensor is symmetric.
  • One participant questions the connection between tensor notation and matrices, seeking clarification on which indices correspond to rows and columns.
  • Another participant emphasizes that while tensors can be represented as matrices, the correspondence between indices and matrix elements must be defined consistently.
  • Concerns are raised about the potential for confusion when using matrix representations of tensors, particularly regarding the notation of upper and lower indices and the risk of incorrect contractions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the clarity and appropriateness of certain tensor notations and their relationship to matrix representations. There is no consensus on the best practices for notation or the implications of using matrices to represent tensors.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the potential for ambiguity in notation and the need for clear definitions when transitioning between tensor and matrix representations. The discussion does not resolve the complexities involved in these representations.

LagrangeEuler
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Can someone explain me difference between
A^{\mu}_{\hspace{0.2cm} \nu}
A^{\hspace{0.2cm} \mu}_{\nu}
and
A^{\mu}_{\nu}?
 
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The first two expressions are correct and usually denote components of a 2nd-rank tensor. You can lower and raise indices with the metric components ##g_{\mu \nu}## and ##g^{\mu \nu}##, respectively, i.e., you have
$${A_{\nu}}^{\mu} = g_{\nu \sigma} g^{\mu \rho} {A^\sigma}_{\rho}.$$
The last expression should be avoided, because the horizontal placement of the indices is not indicated. It's ok if the tensor ##A## is symmetric, i.e., if ##A_{\mu \nu}=A_{\nu \mu}##, because (only!) then
$${A^{\mu}}_{\nu} = g^{\mu \rho} A_{\rho \nu} = g^{\mu \rho} A_{\nu \rho} ={A_{\nu}}^{\mu},$$
and the horizontal ordering is not important.
 
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vanhees71 said:
The first two expressions are correct and usually denote components of a 2nd-rank tensor. You can lower and raise indices with the metric components ##g_{\mu \nu}## and ##g^{\mu \nu}##, respectively, i.e., you have
$${A_{\nu}}^{\mu} = g_{\nu \sigma} g^{\mu \rho} {A^\sigma}_{\rho}.$$
The last expression should be avoided, because the horizontal placement of the indices is not indicated. It's ok if the tensor ##A## is symmetric, i.e., if ##A_{\mu \nu}=A_{\nu \mu}##, because (only!) then
$${A^{\mu}}_{\nu} = g^{\mu \rho} A_{\rho \nu} = g^{\mu \rho} A_{\nu \rho} ={A_{\nu}}^{\mu},$$
and the horizontal ordering is not important.
Is there some connection with matrices? For instance, if we have two indices.
A^{\mu}_{\hspace{0.2cm}\nu} what is the row and what is the column? And in this case
A^{\hspace{0.2cm}\mu}_{\nu} what is the row and what is the column?
 
Tensors are not matrices and matrices are not tensors. Tensors (of rank 2) may be represented by matrices in some basis but it is then up to you to define how indices correspond to rows and columns in a consistent manner.
 
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LagrangeEuler said:
And in this case A^{\hspace{0.2cm}\mu}_{\nu} what is the row and what is the column?
Typically when in a given basis you represent a tensor as a matrix the first index (on the left) is the row and the second the column. So in your example ##\nu## is the row and ##\mu## the column.
 
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I'd repeat Orodruin's caution. Any rank 2 tensor can be represented as a matrix (4×4 in relativity), and it's quite common to get metric tensors represented like this. But there isn't a way to notate upper and lower indices in that form, so it isn't clear what can be legally contracted with what and it's easy to end up writing a matrix equation that contracts over two lower indices. That's difficult to debug, so you do it at your own risk.
 
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