Spontaneous increase in energy level

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of spontaneous transitions of electrons between energy levels in atoms, specifically whether an electron can jump to a higher energy level without absorbing external energy. Participants explore the implications of quantum mechanics, energy conservation, and the role of electromagnetic fields in these processes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that while electrons can fall to lower energy levels spontaneously, this process typically involves the emission of energy, often in the form of a photon.
  • Others argue that a transition to a higher energy level requires the absorption of energy, contradicting the idea that an electron could jump higher without external energy.
  • A participant questions the assumption that the probability for an electron to fall to a lower energy state is nonzero without perturbations, suggesting that stationary states in quantum mechanics do not change over time without external influence.
  • Another viewpoint introduces the uncertainty principle, suggesting that there might be a non-zero probability for an electron to jump to a higher state for a very short time, raising the possibility of "borrowing" energy from the electromagnetic field.
  • One participant mentions a potential connection between the states of the electromagnetic field and the electron, likening the phenomenon to entropy, and suggests that while spontaneous emission is possible, the reverse process may be nearly impossible.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the possibility of electrons jumping to higher energy levels without external energy. While some assert that such transitions are impossible without energy absorption, others explore the implications of quantum mechanics and uncertainty, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in understanding the interactions between electrons and electromagnetic fields, as well as the implications of quantum mechanics on energy transitions. There are unresolved assumptions regarding the nature of stationary states and the role of perturbations.

Getterdog
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i know there is a certain probability for an electron to fall to a lower energy level,without an exciting event,like a collision. Is the reverse also true I.e that a electron could jump to a higher level,without absorbing any extraneous energy..if so are the lifetimes in the new state the same for both processes?
 
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Getterdog said:
i know there is a certain probability for an electron to fall to a lower energy level,without an exciting event,like a collision
It does not just fall. The leftover energy needs to be expelled, usually in the form of a photon, or energy would not be conserved.

Getterdog said:
Is the reverse also true I.e that a electron could jump to a higher level,without absorbing any extraneous energy..if so are the lifetimes in the new state the same for both processes?
Just as you need to expell energy to go to a lower energy level, you need to add energy to go to a higher one.
 
Actually, it's not immediately obvious that the probability for an electron to "fall" to a lower energy state should be nonzero, assuming that the electron occupies a bound state far away from any perturbing electromagnetic fields. Normally, states with well-defined energy in quantum mechanics are "stationary," meaning that they do not change with time. When we introduce a perturbation to the region around a bound state--for example, by shining a light on an electron bound to an atom--we can induce transitions between the stationary states. This is what causes stimulated emission and absorption of radiation by atomic electrons--basically, an electron can absorb a stray photon and "jump" to a higher energy level, or can be "stimulated" by passing photons to jump down to a lower one. (The latter process is not at all intuitive from the point of view of classical physics, and is the mechanism responsible for light amplification in a laser.)

The reason electrons sometimes "fall" even without the presence of a perturbation--in a process called "spontaneous emission"--has to do with quantum electrodynamics. Essentially, the theory tells us that the electromagnetic field is always nonzero--it is literally impossible for a region of space to be free of electromagnetic "perturbations." In particular, spontaneous emission is really just a special case of stimulated emission.

So the answer to your question is no--any transition from a stationary state to a higher-energy one involves the absorption of a photon, just as a transition from a higher-energy state to a lower one involves the emission of a photon.
 
I was thinking of the uncertainty between time and energy,that there is a non zero probability to jump higher for a very short time. As posted on another thread,someone said the atom is never really isolated from any em field,can it “borrow “ this energy from itself?
 
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I think I just found the answer, it involves the combination of the states of an em field combined with the states of the electron,and phase space. It seems almost like the law of entropy in operation. So where by spontaneous emmision is possible the reverse is almost impossible.
 
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