Stat. States, Orthonorm. expansion coefficients etc qn?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concepts of stationary states and orthonormality in quantum mechanics, particularly focusing on the mathematical formulation involving wavefunctions and expansion coefficients. Participants explore the implications of orthonormality, the use of dummy variables in integrals, and the derivation of certain identities related to these concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant discusses the relationship between orthonormality and the expansion of wavefunctions, questioning the purpose of using two variables when the kernel vanishes for unequal instances.
  • Another participant suggests that the derivation leads to the identity $$\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}\psi^*_n(x')\psi_n(x) = \delta(x-x')$$, indicating a connection to the orthonormality condition.
  • A participant expresses the need for clarification on the reasoning behind the derivation and the use of variables.
  • One reply emphasizes the importance of understanding dummy variables, correcting a previous claim about the expression for coefficients and explaining the need for careful index management in summations and integrals.
  • Another participant acknowledges a typographical error in their previous post regarding the notation for coefficients and expresses frustration over the inability to edit their original post.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit some agreement on the importance of orthonormality and the use of dummy variables, but there are unresolved questions regarding the implications of these concepts and the correctness of certain expressions. The discussion remains open-ended with multiple viewpoints presented.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the clarity of the derivations and the handling of indices, as well as the potential for misunderstanding the role of dummy variables in the context of the discussion.

Zacarias Nason
Messages
67
Reaction score
4
I'm reading through some lecture notes for QM in a subsection about stationary states where the definition of orthonormality involving a kronecker delta \int_{-\infty}^{\infty}\psi_n(x) \ \psi_m^*(x)dx=\delta_{m,n}and the formula for some wavefunction that is a superposition of energy eigenstates with expanded coefficients (I think I said that all right? Maybe?) \psi(x)= \sum_{n=1}^{\infty}b_n\psi_n(x) are related to solve for b_n, which turns out to be: b_n=\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}\psi^*_n(x)\psi(x) which is substituted back into the second formula to give: \psi(x) = \sum_{n=1}^{\infty} \bigg( \int_{-\infty}^{\infty} \psi^*_n(x') \psi(x') \bigg) dx' \ \psi_n(x)= \int_{-\infty}^{\infty} \bigg( \sum_{n=1}^{\infty} \psi^*_n(x') \psi_n(x) \bigg) dx' \ \psi(x')Where the order of integration and summation is switched and x' is another variable, not a derivative-It is mentioned that the above formula is of the form: f(x) = \int_{-\infty}^{\infty}K(x',x)f(x')dx and is supposed to hold for any function x.

What I don't understand is that it says that,

"It is intuitively clear that K(x',x) must vanish for x' =/= x, for otherwise we could cook up a contradiction by choosing a peculiar function f(x)";

What exactly is even having the point of two different variables x' and x if it vanishes for all instances where they aren't equal? Isn't this basically saying, since you're multiplying the integrand by zero in all instances where x' =/= x, that the only nonzero result you have is when x' = x? What is the purpose of having the two separate variables? Is it to "preserve" one of them so one of the functions-that based on only f(x) and not at all on f(x')-is un-integrated and is only evaluated later, or something? Or is it more related to the orthonormality bit of this, so it only shows up in one exact circumstance?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
A derivation of that kind is usually done to show that
$$
\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}\psi^*_n(x')\psi_n(x) = \delta(x-x')
$$
 
It does end up showing that, but I have a bunch of questions revolving around "why" that I'll have to post next morning.
 
You may not be understanding the concept of a dummy variable. First, let's take one of the things you wrote:

b_n=\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}\psi^*_n(x)\psi(x)

You can see immediately that this is not right, as ##n## is a free (unmatched) index on the left and a dummy index on the right. The right-hand side here is independent of ##n##, so would give the same result for all ##b_n##. In fact, it should be:

b_n=\int_{-\infty}^{\infty}\psi^*_n(x)\psi(x) dx

To get this, you need to be careful with your summation indices, as follows:

\psi(x)= \sum_{n=1}^{\infty}b_n\psi_n(x) (note that here ##n## is a dummy index, so we can change it to:

\psi(x)= \sum_{m=1}^{\infty}b_m \psi_m(x)

Now, for a given ##n## we can multiply both sides by ##\psi^*_n(x)## and integrate:

\int_{-\infty}^{\infty}\psi^*_n(x)\psi(x) dx = \int_{-\infty}^{\infty}\psi^*_n(x) \sum_{m=1}^{\infty}b_m \psi_m(x)dx = \sum_{m=1}^{\infty} \delta_{nm} b_m = b_n

The same approach is needed for integrals, where you have a number defined as an integral, like this:

b_n = \int_{-\infty}^{\infty}\psi^*_n(x)\psi(x) dx = \int_{-\infty}^{\infty}\psi^*_n(x')\psi(x') dx'

Because in this case ##x## (or ##x'## or whatever you choose) is a dummy variable. If you are going to use this expression for ##b_n## in an equation that involves ##x## as a free variable, then you must change the dummy variable from ##x## to something else, in the same way that we had to change ##n## to something else before.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: dextercioby and Zacarias Nason
Sorry, the series notation on b_n was just a really egregious typo. I'm going to comb over this post and fix any errors that were just unintenionally writing the wrong symbols, and leave any "intentional" mistakes that are indicative of my current understanding alone.

Well...apparently I can't, because I'm unable to edit my OP or the following comment, and I'm not sure why. Any idea why that could've happened? I have permissions to edit this comment, but not those two.
 
Zacarias Nason said:
Sorry, the series notation on b_n was just a really egregious typo. I'm going to comb over this post and fix any errors that were just unintenionally writing the wrong symbols, and leave any "intentional" mistakes that are indicative of my current understanding alone.

Well...apparently I can't, because I'm unable to edit my OP or the following comment, and I'm not sure why. Any idea why that could've happened? I have permissions to edit this comment, but not those two.

I wouldn't worry about that. Is the final step still unclear?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
9K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
6K