Sterman's QFT - 2.7b (on functional derivatives)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation and understanding of functional derivatives as presented in Sterman's work on quantum field theory. Participants explore the mathematical foundations and implications of these derivatives, particularly in the context of physics, and express concerns about specific notations and definitions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion regarding the notation used in Sterman's text, specifically questioning the indices in the functional derivative and their implications.
  • Another participant suggests that the index in the numerator may be a typo, referencing prior definitions to support this claim.
  • There is a challenge raised about the nature of the functional derivative, with a participant noting that the form presented does not align with their understanding of functional derivatives as described in the literature.
  • A later reply discusses the differences between the physicist's and mathematician's definitions of functional derivatives, mentioning the role of test functions and delta distributions in the physicist's approach.
  • Participants discuss the derivation of functional derivatives in the context of integrals and the implications of using delta distributions to simplify expressions.
  • One participant notes that Sterman's justification for the functional derivative may relate more closely to the mathematician's definition, suggesting that verification of this relationship is possible.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the interpretation of the functional derivative or the specific notation used. Multiple competing views and uncertainties remain regarding the definitions and their applications.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the potential typo in notation, the varying definitions of functional derivatives between physicists and mathematicians, and the lack of rigorous derivation provided by participants.

ddd123
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I've been trying to fill in my mathematical blanks of things I just took as dogma before. Especially, not having a background in functional analysis, the functional derivatives often seem to me mumbo jumbo whenever things go beyond the "definition for physicists".

In particular I tried looking everywhere to make sense of this passage from Sterman's:

F9HElhJ.png


I understand everything here but that last ##\equiv## . Especially what makes it look total whatever-y to me is the indices i, j on the RHS. Why does the momentum operator have j and the field i on the numerator, and the field j on the denominator? This could've been totally different and I would've equally said "mmh okay I suppose", something which worries me every time it happens.

If you think it would be beneficial, on top on the answer to this specific part, a primer of functional analysis / derivatives / ? would be appreciated.

Thanks.
 
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The ##j## in the numerator is probably just a typo given that ##f_i(x^0)## was defined before to have ##i## on both arguments. As far as references, the wikipedia entry on "functional derivative" gives the formal mathematical definition of the derivative and develops it briefly. If you really need a longer discussion you might consult the references by Courant and Hilbert and Gel'fand that are listed there.
 
fzero said:
The ##j## in the numerator is probably just a typo given that ##f_i(x^0)## was defined before to have ##i## on both arguments. As far as references, the wikipedia entry on "functional derivative" gives the formal mathematical definition of the derivative and develops it briefly. If you really need a longer discussion you might consult the references by Courant and Hilbert and Gel'fand that are listed there.

Apart from the supposed typo, why is that a functional derivative? I only see a delta * a derivative, and the wiki page says nothing about this form.
 
ddd123 said:
Apart from the supposed typo, why is that a functional derivative? I only see a delta * a derivative, and the wiki page says nothing about this form.

Yes, I should have said a bit more. The physicist version of the functional derivative is slightly different, but I think consistent with the mathematician's version. In the formal definition one introduces a test function ##\phi(x)## that defines the "direction" in which the functional derivative is taken. In the physicist's definition this test function is morally almost always a delta distribution. I can't give a rigorous derivation, so I do not want to claim too much about it.

Instead, you can derive the physicist's version as a formal process where you can compute the derivative of functionals,
$$
F[\phi_i] = \int f(\phi_i(\mathbf{x}), \nabla \phi_i(\mathbf{x}) ) d \mathbf{x},
$$
by a process in which we use the chain rule (and integration by parts) in order to reduce operations to a fundamental definition
$$ \frac{\delta \phi_i(\mathbf{x})}{\delta \phi_j(\mathbf{y})} = \delta^j_i \delta(\mathbf{x}-\mathbf{y}).$$
The presence of the delta distribution also means that, while the functional expression includes an integral over the domain of the functions ##\phi_i##, in the physicist's functional derivative, the integral is gone, having been taken care of by the delta.

Sterman is trying to justify the form of the functional derivative in a slightly different way, which I suppose would be more clearly related to the mathematician's definition. You should be able to verify that the rule I suggested above is completely consistent with Sterman's treatment and leads to the Euler-Lagrange equations, etc.
 
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