Sum of basis elements form a basis

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conditions under which the sets of vectors $\{b_1, \ldots, b_n\}$ and $\{b_1', \ldots, b_n'\}$ form bases of a vector space $V$. Participants explore the implications of linear independence and dimensionality in relation to these sets, examining both directions of the equivalence.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Post 1 introduces the problem and outlines the proof direction for showing that if $\{b_1, \ldots, b_n\}$ is a basis, then $\{b_1', \ldots, b_n'\}$ is also a basis, focusing on linear independence and dimensionality.
  • Post 1 questions how to derive the linear independence of $\{b_1, \ldots, b_n\}$ from the linear independence of $\{b_1', \ldots, b_n'\}$.
  • Post 2 confirms the correctness of the initial reasoning and suggests substituting definitions to continue the proof.
  • Post 3 elaborates on the substitution of definitions and provides a detailed argument for the linear independence of $\{b_1, \ldots, b_n\}$ based on the linear independence of $\{b_1', \ldots, b_n'\}$.
  • Post 3 also states that having the same number of elements as a basis implies that the set spans the vector space, thus forming a basis.
  • Posts 4 and 5 affirm the correctness of the arguments presented in the previous posts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the correctness of the arguments presented regarding the relationship between the two sets of vectors and the conditions for them to be bases. However, the discussion does not reach a consensus on the clarity of the proof steps, particularly in transitioning between the two directions of the argument.

Contextual Notes

The discussion involves assumptions about linear independence and dimensionality that are not explicitly stated, as well as the dependence on the definitions of the basis elements $b_k'$. The proof steps may require further clarification to ensure all participants are aligned on the reasoning.

mathmari
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Hey! :o

Let $V$ be a vector space. Let $b_1, \ldots , b_n\in V$ and let $\displaystyle{b_k':=\sum_{i=1}^kb_i}$ for $k=1, \ldots , n$.

I want to show that $\{b_1, \ldots , b_n\}$ is a basis of $V$ iff $\{b_1', \ldots , b_n'\}$ is a basis of $V$. I have done the following:

Let $B:=\{b_1, \ldots , b_n\}$ be a basis of $V$.

That means that the set is linearly independent and $|B|=\dim (V)$, right?

We want to show that the set $B':=\{b_1', \ldots , b_n'\}$ is also linearly independent and $|B'|=\dim (V)$, don't we?

Since the elements of $B$ is linearly independent, we have that $c_1b_1+c_2b_2+\ldots c_nb_n=0 \Rightarrow c_1=c_2=\ldots =c_n=0$.

We have that \begin{align*}\gamma_1b_1'+\gamma_2b_2'+\ldots \gamma_nb_n'=0 &\Rightarrow \gamma_1\sum_{i=1}^1b_i+\gamma_2\sum_{i=1}^2b_i+\ldots \gamma_n\sum_{i=1}^nb_i=0 \\ & \Rightarrow b_1\sum_{i=1}^n\gamma_i+b_2\sum_{i=2}^n\gamma_i+\ldots +b_n\sum_{i=n}^n\gamma_i=0 \\ & \Rightarrow \sum_{i=n}^1\gamma_i=\sum_{i=n}^2\gamma_i=\ldots =\sum_{i=n}^n\gamma_i=0\\ & \Rightarrow \gamma_1=\gamma_2=\ldots =\gamma_n=0\end{align*}

Since the set $B'$ has $n$ elements as the set $B$ it follows that $|B'|=\dim (V)$.

Therefore $B'$ is a basis of $V$.

Is at this direction everything correct? (Wondering) For the other direction:

Let $B'=\{b_1', \ldots , b_n'\}$ be a basis of $V$.

That means that the set is linearly independent and $|B'|=\dim (V)$.

We want to show that the set $B:=\{b_1, \ldots , b_n\}$ is also linearly independent and $|B|=\dim (V)$.

Since the elements of $B'$ is linearly independent, we have that $\gamma_1b_1'+\gamma_2b_2'+\ldots \gamma_nb_n'=0 \Rightarrow \gamma_1=\gamma_2=\ldots =\gamma_n=0$.

How do we get from $c_1b_1+c_2b_2+\ldots c_nb_n=0 $ the linear combination with the elements $b_i'$ ? (Wondering)
 
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mathmari said:
Is at this direction everything correct? (Wondering)

Hey mathmari!

Yep. It's all correct so far. (Bow)

mathmari said:
Let $B'=\{b_1', \ldots , b_n'\}$ be a basis of $V$.

That means that the set is linearly independent and $|B'|=\dim (V)$.

We want to show that the set $B:=\{b_1, \ldots , b_n\}$ is also linearly independent and $|B|=\dim (V)$.

Since the elements of $B'$ is linearly independent, we have that $\gamma_1b_1'+\gamma_2b_2'+\ldots \gamma_nb_n'=0 \Rightarrow \gamma_1=\gamma_2=\ldots =\gamma_n=0$.

How do we get from $c_1b_1+c_2b_2+\ldots c_nb_n=0 $ the linear combination with the elements $b_i'$ ?

How about substituting the definitions of $b_i'$ and continue in a similar fashion as the other direction? (Wondering)
 
Klaas van Aarsen said:
How about substituting the definitions of $b_i'$ and continue in a similar fashion as the other direction? (Wondering)

We have the following:
\begin{align*}\gamma_1b_1'+\gamma_2b_2'+\ldots \gamma_nb_n'=0 &\Rightarrow \gamma_1\sum_{i=1}^1b_i+\gamma_2\sum_{i=1}^2b_i+\ldots \gamma_n\sum_{i=1}^nb_i=0 \\ & \Rightarrow b_1\sum_{i=1}^n\gamma_i+b_2\sum_{i=2}^n\gamma_i+\ldots +b_n\sum_{i=n}^n\gamma_i=0 \\ & \Rightarrow \sum_{i=n}^1\gamma_i=\sum_{i=n}^2\gamma_i=\ldots =\sum_{i=n}^n\gamma_i=0 \ \text{ since } \gamma_1=\gamma_2=\ldots =\gamma_n=0\end{align*}
From that it follows that the elements of $B$ are linearly independent.

Is that correct? (Wondering)

Since the set $B$ has $n$ elements as the set $B'$ it follows that $|B|=\dim (V)$ and so $B$ is also a basis. We use here the fact that if a set is linearly independent and has the same number of elements than a basis which means that it spans the vector space then that set is also a basis, right? (Wondering)
 
Yep. All correct. (Nod)
 
Klaas van Aarsen said:
Yep. All correct. (Nod)

Great! Thanks a lot! (Mmm)
 

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