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Supergalactic cluster waves and geological cycles

  1. Nov 29, 2009 #1
    In large scale surveys of the Universe there are found to be huge megawalls of galaxies. A 128 Mpc/h periodicity in galaxy redshifts is observed by Tom Broadhurst, Richard Ellis, David Koo and Alex Szalay, in Nature vol 343 p726. Some cosmologists have suggested that this might be some sort of wave structure. Now that the Hubble constant has been determined to be about 71 km/s/Mpc we can say that this wave is around 588 million light years in length. It is clear from the data that there are also several shorter waves that appear to be half and quarter of that wavelength.

    In geology, a series of long cycles have long been known and are estimated as 600, 300, 150, 74 and 37 million years in period. More recently, Moscow University Geology Prof S Afanasiev has (through his "Nanocycles Method") been able to accurately determine the period of the longest of these cycles to be 586.24 million years. There are many instances of other geology and climate related studies and cosmic ray fluctuations (which are suspected as a cause) finding periods near to 586, 293, 146, 73 and 36.5 million years.

    We need to understand that a wave with wavelength 586 million light years will oscillate in a period of 586 million years if it has velocity c, which applies to electromagnetic and gravitational waves. Therefore it seems very likely that these two phenomena are in fact one. There are huge standing waves in space that lead to the formation of galactic superclusters and which also cause repeated fluctuations in cosmic rays, temperature and climate generally on Earth.

    Furthermore, the fact that Prof Afanasiev has very accurately determined the cycle period allows us to use the 128 MPc/h redshift periodicity to determine the Hubble constant with great accuracy. Based on published data this gives H = 71.2 +/- 0.3 km/s/MPc, but a better analysis of the data using the obviously present harmonics also would allow improved accuracy with 0.1 or even 0.01 km/s/MPc being achievable.

    This method bypasses the entire stepladder of distances in cosmology with all its various problems.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2009
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  3. Nov 30, 2009 #2


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    The magnitudes of such extrasolar periods are so exceedingly small that it seems vastly unlikely that they actually have any effect. One would need to really present strong evidence that they are producing an actual effect, and simply matching up periods isn't going to do it.
  4. Nov 30, 2009 #3
    Why do you say that?

    Sometimes people think that very long period waves cannot have much energy because of E=hf. However that is only the quantum of exchange of energy, it is no way a limit on what a wave can carry. Quite clearly such waves must be exceedingly powerful to control the formation of galaxies and to alter the temperature of entire groups of galaxies by some degrees. We don't even know whether they are e/m or gravitational waves.
  5. Nov 30, 2009 #4
    If they are that powerful then you have a major problem in that you have to explain why it merely caused a geological change on the earth rather than disrupting the entire solar system and destroying the earth. The difference in something that wouldn't be noticeable at all, and something that would annihilate the solar system is small enough that it's really hard for me to see how something cosmological would "merely" cause mass extinctions, especially if it happened repeatedly.

    One problem with observations of periodicity is that if you have noisy data then it's trivially easy to come up with evidence of period matching when there isn't anything there but coincidence. One problem is harmonics. If you have something that happens at 30 million years, then you will have a rhythm also at 60, 90, 120 million years.

    Also if you look at Ellis paper, he was doing a "pencil beam" survey, and my understanding is that more recent studies don't show any sharp periodicity.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2009
  6. Nov 30, 2009 #5


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    It's far simpler than that: the energy falloff of such waves with distance is 1/r^2. Most anything beyond our solar system is so far away that its energy is way too low to impact our planet in any meaningful way. Only a few exceedingly energetic events, such as supernova explosions, are the exception here, and then only if they're relatively nearby, in galactic terms. And then, if they're close enough, their effect is to destroy all life on Earth, not to cause tectonic movements.
  7. Dec 1, 2009 #6
    The idea that there is little difference between not noticeable and destroying the solar system is rather absurd. There is a huge spectrum of possibilities between there.

    Events that caused for example fluctuations in cosmic rays (which are known to follow these cycles) and x-rays would cause genetic damage and result in mass extinction events. They wouold not cause planets to fly out of their orbits or explode.
    Noise and periodicity are quite different things.
    No you don't. But a very non-linear 120 MY wave will have harmonics at 60 MY, 40 My and 30 My.
    The one pencil beam survey is a very clear example without any others. However other surveys do show that matter is not distributed randomly in the Universe. Most large scale surveys do show significant periodicity although the method commonly used to search for this is a bad one because it makes assumptions (that in my view are invalid) about being able to combine radial and transverse "distances", rather than just using redshift data directly.
  8. Dec 1, 2009 #7
    Actually, large standing waves that are across huge regions of space do not fall off as 1/r^2 at all. Plane waves, for example, have constant energy with distance.

    Waves that form galactic clusters are far more energetic than supernovas.
  9. Dec 1, 2009 #8


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    Yeah, I think you're going to have to show that any such waves exist. At all.
  10. Dec 1, 2009 #9
    Look at this graphic http://ray.tomes.biz/gallwallc.gif" and you can see the wave quite clearly. Similarly, look at any long term geological series and you can see the same set of harmonically related waves.
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  11. Dec 1, 2009 #10


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    That's not a wave in any sense that matters here. That's just the spatial distribution of galaxies.
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  12. Dec 1, 2009 #11
    Not at the energies you are talking about here. If you have something that can move galaxies, then it will destroy planets.

    For small number of events they are really hard to tell apart. If you have a place where it rains about once every week, and you are there for a month, it's really hard to tell if you are dealing with random events that happen about once a week, or something that happens every Sunday.

    We've done a lot more studies of galaxies since 1990. We have a very good power spectrum for galaxy distributions and there isn't any periodicity.
  13. Dec 1, 2009 #12
    Here is an experiment to try. Take a coin. Flip it a 1000 times. Now mark the areas where you have five heads in a row. It's going to look quite periodic even though its a completely random process, and in fact if you run the statistics and calculate the spacing between hits, you'll find that they seem evenly spaced.

    The human eye is very good at spotting patterns. So good that the eye spots patterns that aren't there. There are statistical tests that you are run to see if the process that is generating the distribution is random or not. People have run them against galaxies, and it is.
  14. Dec 2, 2009 #13
    Which is precisely the problem since those sorts of energies will completely destroy the earth. It takes 10^39 ergs of energy to destroy the earth. Supernova are 10^51 ergs. If you have a wave that is far more energetic than supernova (say 10^53 ergs), you'll end up vaporizing the planet.

    Anything that can move galaxies around will squash the earth like a bug. We are talking not about merely increasing cosmic rays, we are talking here about Vogon destructor rays and the destruction of Alderaan at the hands of Darth Vader.

    You can go at the other level and say that the wave just increasing the cosmic ray flux, but then you don't have nearly the energy to move galaxies.

    This is just not going to work. At this point you can go two things:

    1) you can stare at the problem and try to come up with some mechanism for the energies to work (and it's perfect acceptable in these situations so say, yes we do have a problem, my model doesn't work, give me a month or two to think about the problem and I'll come up with something), or

    2) you can totally ignore the issue, in which case I claim that all of the effects that you see are caused by mobs of invisible green dragons that are moving planets and galaxies around as part of a game of cosmic billards.
  15. Dec 2, 2009 #14


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    Well, actually, there is some, but it's very faint. You can see the "bump" in the power spectrum that stems from Baryon Acoustic Oscillations pretty well. The periodicity is about 150Mpc. Though again, it's very faint.
  16. Dec 2, 2009 #15
    You do that experiment and if you get a graph like the one I referred to, I can guarantee that you cheated. You don't know what you are talking about. I am a statistician and these results are strongly significant.
  17. Dec 2, 2009 #16
    The waves do not move galaxies. The waves are there first and cause the formation of galaxies at the nodes where the energy is more concentrated because of non-linearities in the laws of physics.

    All matter in the Universe forms after the larger wave structures. The Universe forms from the top down (and I can prove this by the results that I get) not from the bottom up as physics currently wrongly assumes. All structures form from waves and due to non-linearities harmonics of those waves continue to form. I can predict all the scales in the Universe at which things form from a single simple principle. See
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2009
  18. Dec 2, 2009 #17


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    Sort of. To make this perhaps a bit more clear, the "waves" that we see in the structure of the distribution of galaxies (dubbed 'Baryon Acoustic Oscillations') were originally sound waves in the pre-CMB plasma (hence the 'acoustic oscillations' part, with 'baryon' coming from the cosmological term for normal matter: protons and neutrons are classified as baryons).

    But once our universe cooled from a plasma to a gas, these sound waves stopped oscillating: sound waves are pressure waves, and the pressure here was supported by radiation (this early gas wasn't dense enough to support sound waves like those that pass through our atmosphere). When our universe became transparent, the radiation effectively passed right through the remaining matter, which, in turn, meant that it felt no pressure. Without pressure, the matter basically just collapsed where it was (if the matter in the local region was dense enough), or spread apart more and more (if it wasn't).

    So what we see in the distribution of galaxies today is an imprint of sound waves that once oscillated in the pre-CMB universe. But due to the physics of the situation, their oscillation has long since stopped.
  19. Dec 2, 2009 #18
    Well that is your theory. My theory is that they are waves with velocity c that are still oscillating. Let us test this against the facts:

    Fact 1. There are observed geological cycles with just the right periods to fit with my theory. That includes the fundamental 586 million year period and clearly visible are the 293 and 146 million year harmonics also.

    Status of your theory: This is all just a great big coincidence!

    Status of my theory: It fits the facts perfectly!
  20. Dec 2, 2009 #19


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    Status of your theory: requires magic to work.

    Without a physical mechanism to explain why these waves would still be oscillating, you're left up a creek without a paddle.
  21. Dec 2, 2009 #20
    One question. How would that wave keep its frequency stable over such a long time? Space is expanding, isn't it?
  22. Dec 2, 2009 #21
    OK then.....

    I'm at a node in a standing wave. Time passes. I shouldn't see anything change.

    The problem is that other than things like the acoustic peak don't preferentially form at particular scales.
  23. Dec 2, 2009 #22
    People have done this sort of thing with the Nemesis hypothesis, and it's not clear that there is any geological cycle. The fundamental period that comes up with mass extinctions is something like 26 million years. but even that is subject to debate and the last I heard that's under dispute.

    I'm not claiming a theory. Right now I'm questioning the facts. I'm not a geologist so I can't speak with any strong expertise about geological cycles, although I do know that people were looking for cycles as a result of the Nemesis hypothesis. I'm more familar with the cosmological data, and I think you are cherry picking data that matches your theories, and ignoring data that doesn't.

    Also I work on Wall Street so I have a passing familarity with econometrics. There are a whole bunch of things that look non-random that are random and other things that look very random but aren't. The human eye is horrible for spotting cycles, and there are a ton of statistical tests that you can run on data series to see if the underlying process is random or not. People use those tests against economic data to try to make money. One thing that makes me skeptical that you've spotted anything is that you don't seem to be familar with any of those tests (i.e. unit-root tests, GARCH models).

    If something is random, you can make money from it. If something is non-random, you can also make money from it. If you think that something is random when it's not or vice-versa, you are going to get your head handed back to you, so there is a huge amount of effort to use tests to see if something is really random or not, and *TO SPECIFY AND UNDERSTAND THE UNDERLYING PROCESS IN DETAIL*.

    I claim that this is caused by green space dragons playing space billards. That fits the facts perfectly also. Fitting the facts is a necessary part of any model, but it's hardly sufficient.

    Saying that there is some non-linear standing wave that causes galaxy formation is curiously enough.... TOTALLY CORRECT and also TOTALLY USELESS. The problem is that you have told me nothing at all about the characteristics of that nonlinear wave, whereas I can run CMBFAST and get polarizations, power spectrum, and correlation functions, and the fact that those waves were frozen about 10 billion years ago.

    It's not enough to say that there is "some non-linear wave." That sort of guess is totally useless even if is correct. What I need are details on the nature of that wave so that I can create some pretty detailed predictions. Again what makes me very skeptical that you'll get anything useful is that you don't seem to be familiar at all with the language people use to describe waves in detail. The only thing that you are talking about is periodicity and that is just not enough to describe a wave, particularly a non-linear one.

    Also, I always get suspicious when a theory fits the facts perfectly. In any non-trivial theory that I can think of when the theory fits the facts perfectly, then you did something wrong. One thing that's important is "error bars." To what degree can the theory say something useful. Saying 586 million years is a totally useless number. I should be 586 +/- 3 million years. or 0.3 million, 0.003 million, 00003 million.

    So does your theory predict things to +/- 1 miillion +/- 10 million +/- 0.0001 million years? If you can't tell me then its useless.
  24. Dec 3, 2009 #23


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    You are joking, right?
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
  25. Dec 5, 2009 #24
    You poor fellow. Did you not read that I said the waves are electromagnetic or gravitational.

    Even with magic your theory doesn't work!
  26. Dec 5, 2009 #25
    No. :-)

    There is a process of harmonic formation that moves energy to smaller scales. The result is that smaller waves (sometimes called nucleons) gain in energy / mass over time. This means that when we look at distant galaxies we see them as they were in the past when all matter had lower frequencies and so they seem reddened. This has nothing to do with motion.

    See http://ray.tomes.biz/maths.html for more.
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