Medical Synesthesia, some people perceive individual symbols, characters, numbers

[HeLiXe]

OK...maybe I'm just moderately crazy then. I'm okay with that!

 

[fuzzyfelt]

I wonder if that may be related to after-images possibly with eye strain. I don't think after-images have been explained well, so that may or may not be related.

 

[HeLiXe]

Thanks Fuzzyfelt...I understand the eye strain thing, you could be right! My eyes are possibly strained from being so tired and I get so consumed with the beauty of the colors that I feel positive emotions and ...well them having their own stories maybe that is something from being exhausted too! The colors are very vivid and beautiful though, not like the normal eye strain thing. It could also be something with my thalamus, and over-exhaustion makes some other neural pathways that normally would not be associated with color overlap. I don't know! It is like the part in the article that talked about color having a personality, but I would not say it is the same because it is more like the colors communicate a story by their hue and I understand it.

anyways >_> I shall take my weird self somewhere else now!

 

[rhody]

Holy ... !

I was looking at a web page in deep blue, almost purple background http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1785", with white lettering:

Guess what I saw: partial grapheme -> color synesthesia for letters:

lower case: n,d,h,p,u,f,t,g,n light green
lower case: l,i,o,e,1,8 light pink

Holy crap ! If I rapidly open, close and strobe my eyes, more than 3 times a second, the effect goes away and the letters are pure white !

Woo hoo... now I know what partial grapheme -> color associative synesthesia feels and looks like.
I swear to God, I am shaking as I type this. I can't freaking believe it. By sheer chance, in a search for a missing scientist of all things, thanks, Dr Li, I hope you are alright and they find you intact somewhere.

Rhody...

P.S. RasalHague, do some 3 to 5 second stobing with your eyes, both, left only, right only, and let me know what you see, just for comparison.
Now that I know my form of synesthesia only manifests with dark/blue/purple background, try my page as well with white lettering and let me know what you see.

Last night I was reading a web page, http://lifeboat.com/ex/bios.edward.taub" with a black background, white lettering at home. Low and behold some of the letters only appear in light green, no pink, versus light green and light pink with a dark purple background and white letters. Worse yet, I try to make it happen on another PC, same black page, same white lettering and no light green letters at all, must be the way the RGB settings are on that machine and the refresh rate. My machine at home has a fast high res video card, and a high def monitor, whereas this machine has a basic video card and not the greatest resolution or refresh rates. I will double check at home and report what letters that were reported under the dark purple background are either in agreement with or missing from the black background.

It's nice to come back to this thread, lots of good memories here, experiments yet to be completed, on hold, at least for now...

Rhody...

Edit:

lower case: n,d,h,p,u,f,t,g,n light green with deep purple screen white letters
lower case; f,o,t,w light green with black screen white letters

Less characters this time, with new o and w thrown in for good measure.
This is what I see at home with my high def monitor, 1680 X 1050 pixels, 60 hz refresh rate, true color 32 bit and black background. I tried it with and without glasses, I have tinted lenses and the letters stay the same color, although a bit fuzzy. So the way the display is built and sent to the eye definitely is a factor. I just wish I could explain it because I have not seen any references to grapheme ->color synesthesia like this before. Had I come up with a variable background test program I would have seen this long ago. I am at a loss for the moment to explain it.

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

Also, rhody, would you mind elaborating on the maps mentioned that resemble pianos and piano keys, or are there links, please?

Hi Fuzzy,

I wanted to address the auditory cortex map differentiation insight that I have gained in the course of probing the fragmented sound -> color synesthesia summarized by waht in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2770341&postcount=237". Auditory cortex layout and function is described in detail in Dr Merzenich's research in the book, "The Brain that Changes itself".

The following three links (not taken from the book help illustrate this: Note: processing applies to speech http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Auditory_Cortex_Frequency_Mapping.svg/800px-Auditory_Cortex_Frequency_Mapping.svg.png" .

The auditory cortex is mapped like the keys of a piano (see link 1), with low notes on the left side, with frequency ascending from left to right. Humans are born with their auditory cortex that must be "molded" during the "critical period" that fully differentiates the piano key maps that are seen in toddlers that have developed a normal spectra of frequencies into different bands. I included link 2 to show how auditory signals are processed. Link 3 provides greater detail of how auditory processing occurs from the ear inward, if you scroll about halfway down in the description you will see a nice layout of the auditory cortex and how it applies mainly to "speech perception". I understand this is not the same as for musical interpretation, however, the mapping of the auditory cortex is critical for both speech and music processing, a poorly differentiated auditory cortex means that hearing then accurately processing speech or musical composition in the brain is virtually impossible. If a person's auditory maps are not stimulated as infants correctly (they say exposing babies to classical music is recommended, now I understand the reason why, to differentiate the brain auditory cortex maps correctly.) There is research to suggest that when a child is raised new continuous sources of white noise, without clear frequency separation, that this condition if experienced in the first two years of life, combined with the genes that trigger autism can lead to autism. As long as the brain remains open or plastic this condition can be improved through correct exposure to a variety of sounds of varying intensities and pitches, both upward and downward. This exposure is critical. White noise that continuously bombards the auditory cortex in infants causes many brain maps to be poorly differentiated, not just the auditory cortex, which in turn leads to the many learning disorders experienced by children diagnosed with autism. There is more evidence that people who have perfect pitch have it run in families, which may be another gene expression that when mapped to the auditory cortex results in a perfect cortex, then it would be interesting to compare rFMRI scans to processing of music for those who have perfect pitch with those who don't, I suspect more fine detail appearing in the auditory cortex for those with perfect pitch than for those who don't.

waht's music -> color partial synesthesia if I remember correctly was in lower frequencies, around 1Khz to around 2.5 Khz, so taken in context the cells in the piano key area of his auditory cortex also coincide with color maps when music that matches the types noted in his experience occur. Pretty cool, if you ask me.

That's about it for now, on vacation in Aruba, I have one more lesson in para-sailing lesson tomorrow, actually up on a surf board, it is pretty scary, those things require exquisite motor control/timing to function properly, my brain is "not mapped" for confident control, and the power of the para-sail in the wind here in Aruba is intimidating.

Rhody...

 

[brainstorm]

On a purely anecdotal note, my trumpet instructer (and now friend) claims to have the experience of percieving certain notes as having a colour. I've never had a reason to believe otherwise, and he was drawn to the music BECAUSE of that, or so he says. Considering that he previously worked in a wool-mill, and had no formal musical education... I'm not surprised.

I think major chords and scales are typically described as "bright," while minor ones are "dark." I don't know which came first, the division of piano keys into white and black with all minor chords requiring the use of black notes, or the classification of the harmonies into bright and dark.

More to the theme of color, 7th chords such as C7 or G7 sound "green" to me for some reason. I don't know if this is random and personal or if there's some cultural learning that promotes the association.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Thanks very much, rhody, for the impressive reply which has given me a lot to think about!

 

[madhatter106]

Thought I'd add a bit to this threads subject. for as long as I can recall sound notes have a strong emotional association. music will induce certain emotional feelings that may or may not be appropriate to the type of music. i.e. extreme rage to a slow melody. I always assumed everyone felt this as it's commonly explained that music soothes the soul. However the clear and strong feelings I get from notes can be a bit much and as such I don't listen to music much, that and most music today imparts a strong feeling of either anger or revulsion.

sound in general has emotion tied to it for me, music is just the worst of it though. As a kid I was tested and found that I have extremely sensitive hearing and sight, which brings me to the other odd sense that once again until just last week I kid you not, thought was common. I can see IR shadows not the full IR spectrum. I'm trying to filter out where exactly it dies off. It was late afternoon and I was working in the backyard it was a nice clear sunny day 70*F and as I was looking down I noticed an increase in what appeared to be cloud shadows, I look up and it's clear as a bell. I look down and realize it's the thermal heat from the roof and it's casting moving shadows. I asked my wife if she could see it and she thought I had lost my marbles.

I'm blue eyed and there is some correlation to light sensitivity and pigment. I can adjust to dark rooms easily and can see in what most consider pitch black. I also had a habit as kid that drove my mom nuts saying I was going to ruin my vision my reading in the dark. I can still do this as the printing actually becomes a dark rust red tone. bright sunny days will induce pain.

now here's some input to the alcohol methamphetamine question. I have for the last yr been taking adderall and when on the meds it reduces the effects of sound/emotion and visual sensitivity. If I skip the meds or reduce it down they come back. alcohol can increase the sensations to a point and it really depends on the type. beer is non-effective, tequila is BAD I avoid that stuff as it makes it worse. rum and whiskeys are mild in efficacy.

of the two the UV vision thing fascinates me, I would explain it this way. the depiction of a mirage where across the horizon you see the distortion due to the thermal risers and light scattering, now imagine that with everything you look at. thankfully it's not to bad as most things are within a certain range of temperature, but some objects are colder than one would think and it's those that have a clarity, objects that radiate have a subtle wavy distortion of shadows. is it synesthesia ? not sure but to me its like seeing temperature and thought everyone did, it does explain why people are obsessed with thermometers, I thought it was just a way to put a number on what you saw/felt.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Wow, and thanks, such a strongly emotional response to sound, and also seeing temperature are fascinating additions to this thread that I’d like to think more about, but am not likely to get back for a while.

Just to start, however, since you say responses don’t always seem appropriate to the music, do you notice specific correlations? And as you mention notes for one, do you have absolute or relative pitch?

I agree, the temperature vision is very interesting. Just repeating, although always seeing temperatures you particularly notice extremes, cold having more clarity. And I’m confused about whether the images are described as shadows or as casting shadows, or both? My blue eyes obviously aren’t nearly as sensitive.

The differing affects of meds and types of alcohol is interesting, too.

 

[rhody]

Madhatter,

Welcome to this long lived and amazing thread. You state you have extremely sensitive sight and hearing. I think it is kind of cool that you naturally assumed for a long time that everyone had the same sensitivities to sound and light. I am glad it has not become a problem for you because of fear, phobia's etc... or physical distraction that could result in injury. I want to focus on the IR part.

Your situation is the first I have ever heard anywhere about seeing partial IR frequencies as shadows, see http://www2.chemistry.msu.edu/faculty/reusch/VirtTxtJml/Spectrpy/InfraRed/infrared.htm" . You said in your post:

I was looking down I noticed an increase in what appeared to be cloud shadows, I look up and it's clear as a bell. I look down and realize it's the thermal heat from the roof and it's casting moving shadows.

If the heat was rising from your roof, it would rise almost vertically, correct ? If the sun was hitting those rising plumes of IR waves, I am having trouble visualizing it, I assume from an angle that would (for you) cause the distortion to strike the ground where you said you saw it. Would it be possible to rough sketch and post what you saw.

In addition you said you can read letters in a dark room, I assume white paper, black lettering. If you click the first link above the color your describe the letters being closely match the blood red color on the low side of the visible spectrum, bordering on the cusp of the beginning of the IR frequencies. I don't think that is by coincidence either. I will have to ponder that some more. Fuzzy, or anyone else with an educated opinion, feel free to jump in here.

From the hyper-physics link above: I believe the technically correct term is "near infrared" where you are visualizing whatever it is you are seeing, see explanation below:

The term "infrared" refers to a broad range of frequencies, beginning at the top end of those frequencies used for communication and extending up the the low frequency (red) end of the visible spectrum. The wavelength range is from about 1 millimeter down to 750 nm. The range adjacent to the visible spectrum is called the "near infrared" and the longer wavelength part is called "far infrared".

Now the big question becomes what range: from 1 mm down to 750 nano-meters is you perception happening in.

Are you willing to probe your sensitivity range of frequencies and wavelengths through question and answer. Using this technique, we were able to distinguish PF member "waht's" partial sound -> color synesthesia, narrowing it to a limited frequency range. I don't know if this will be possible in the millimeter to nano-meter range, unless we have some sensitive and expensive equipment to measure. Creative thinking may help. I am open to suggestions.

Lastly, Do any other family members have the same condition. Do you remember at what age did you first started to notice notice this, and were there any things that happened to you in childhood that could have triggered it ?

Rhody...

P.S. Hi, Fuzzy, glad to see you active in this thread again, hopefully there is more for the PF peanut gallery to explore and learn.

 

[rhody]

Madhatter,

A test you can try in a dark room, print out a page from this http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1785". The background is dark purple with white letters.
Take this page into a dark room, and tell me what colors the white letters appear as.
Try this link as well, black background, white letters: http://lifeboat.com/ex/bios.edward.taub"

Rhody...

 

[madhatter106]

Thought I'd pop in before lights out.
I wasn't able to print off the web as my printer is a BW toner one. the color printer is out of ink and I haven't the need as late to replace the cartridge.
anycase I did try something, I have a bunch of colored sharpies, so I went into the office and closed the doors turned out the lights and layout the pens according to the colors I could see them in, for speed and simplicity I picked out black, purple, red, yellow, blue, green & blue. tossed them into a bag and then with lights out pulled them out and arranged the pens.

I could tell yellow simply by the fact it had no color. blue and green were real close but I was still able to tell them apart. black was simple as it was still black. the odd two are red and purple, red looked purple and purple looked red. now the room was what you'd consider near pitch black. I also have a maglite and tried one other thing, holding the light against paper I'd turn it on and let it sit for a minute, it would leak a bit of light so I'd keep my eyes shut and turned away. after turning off the light and moving it from the paper there was a glowing spot of light that would fade over a couple seconds, not an image burn from me looking at it but from the paper itself, I tried it on many surfaces and it seems to only appear upon cotton fabrics, paper, painted wall, wood without a varnish finish. the color of the light is whitish purple, kinda of like a black light. I'm assuming everyone see's black light as annoyingly bright and blue/purple? makes furniture look funny as the stain becomes somewhat transparent and the grain more visible.

as to the heat thermal shadow, best I can describe it is if you get a fire going in the afternoon, bbq or otherwise look at the sunlight filtering through the heat, does it cast shadows? do you notice the light refraction on the ground? the shadows I see are like that always moving but don't seem to be affected by wind. and looking thru a window at them nearly makes them disappear.

hope that helps. oh and incidently I can also focus on the cells in my eye and see the structure nerves and shadows. odd I know but it's possible, I had to google it to make sure I wasn't really nuts.

 

[bobze]

as to the heat thermal shadow, best I can describe it is if you get a fire going in the afternoon, bbq or otherwise look at the sunlight filtering through the heat, does it cast shadows? do you notice the light refraction on the ground? the shadows I see are like that always moving but don't seem to be affected by wind. and looking thru a window at them nearly makes them disappear.

You're not seeing "thermal shadows", you're seeing changes in air density. Different temperature airs have different refractive indexes, which changes the path of light. The "shadow" you see cast from this is simply due to the altered path of light (refraction) from the different air densities. Its something most people can see, even though its pretty subtle. No X-men abilities today

hope that helps. oh and incidently I can also focus on the cells in my eye and see the structure nerves and shadows. odd I know but it's possible, I had to google it to make sure I wasn't really nuts.

Nor can you focus on cells in your eyes, at that distance you can't get the resolution to see a cell. Not to mention that the best resolving power of the best human eyes is still in the hundreds of microns, meaning you'd never be able to pick out an individual cell--Which are much smaller than our resolving power. The "cobwebs" (what I think you probably are calling nerves) and "cells" are debris in your vitreous humor, the gel-like liquid in your eye.

As you age, some of the vitreous humor is replaced with a higher water content gel, which allows debris to "float" around in it. When it floats across the eye in a way that it obstructs the light ray entering the eye, it casts a shadow on your retina.

You're not actually seeing anything, you're "seeing" the obstruction of light by the debris.

Similar to if a large object in low Earth orbit crossed in front of a star you were observing. You wouldn't see the object, rather the obstruction of the light source you were looking at.

This is something that happens to all people, most typically when they observe bright light sources, but if you ever notice a change in incidence/rate of occurrence, you should talk to your doc (family doc or eye doc) about it. As certain pathological conditions can change the frequency you get "floater".

 

[madhatter106]

You're not seeing "thermal shadows", you're seeing changes in air density. Different temperature airs have different refractive indexes, which changes the path of light. The "shadow" you see cast from this is simply due to the altered path of light (refraction) from the different air densities. Its something most people can see, even though its pretty subtle. No X-men abilities today

right except I'm using that as an analog so that you may get an idea of what I see, it's not as strong as the refraction of light in that example but it's there it's also not in 'colors' but more of a lack of color. It would be nice if it was somehow useful but it really isn't, more distracting than anything.

Nor can you focus on cells in your eyes, at that distance you can't get the resolution to see a cell. Not to mention that the best resolving power of the best human eyes is still in the hundreds of microns, meaning you'd never be able to pick out an individual cell--Which are much smaller than our resolving power. The "cobwebs" (what I think you probably are calling nerves) and "cells" are debris in your vitreous humor, the gel-like liquid in your eye.

As you age, some of the vitreous humor is replaced with a higher water content gel, which allows debris to "float" around in it. When it floats across the eye in a way that it obstructs the light ray entering the eye, it casts a shadow on your retina.

You're not actually seeing anything, you're "seeing" the obstruction of light by the debris.

Similar to if a large object in low Earth orbit crossed in front of a star you were observing. You wouldn't see the object, rather the obstruction of the light source you were looking at.

This is something that happens to all people, most typically when they observe bright light sources, but if you ever notice a change in incidence/rate of occurrence, you should talk to your doc (family doc or eye doc) about it. As certain pathological conditions can change the frequency you get "floater".

I'm aware of the 'debris' in ones eye, trouble is this isn't what I'm talking about. I actually can't find any in my vision. I've been to ophthalmologists and had my eyes checked when I thought I was 'seeing' something I shouldn't. my eyes checked out fine with no problems and was told I have no signs of damage.

I can see and focus within a depth of field in the eye that is fascinating. the structures I see are not singular to each eye but form a 'map' that spans both. like having 2 monitors sharing one large picture, where the edge of one is the edge of the other. when I relax and focus in on the structure it starts off closest to my field of vision and branches out, in the right eye it's off center a few degrees and forms a slight arc to the left, a near mirror image is what I see in the left. what's really odd is that I can also see from either eye a partial of the other so that it forms a singular image without gaps. if I close one or the other eye the peripheral field of the other eyes structure remains.

with a bit further relaxing I can focus further in and pull a depth of field upon the structure and notice it forms a 3D maze of tubes filled with spheres, the structure does not float about nor does change shape it's fixed. I can also see or sense the gel like structure of the eye, it is a bit disconcerting kind of like being underwater. It's an odd sensation to look this close as well, it's a feeling of being inside something but that something is you and not you. I think this is because there is this realization that you can without thought look upon the world and miss that your eyes are only one more input source for your mind and actually seeing that is very intimate to who you are.

here's some more info on this 'insight' pun intended. it's best done with the sky as a backdrop. initially I thought it was due to the blue color or light color. I don't think so, here's why. on a clear day or overcast day it's the same, so a specific color or frequency of blue isn't the reason. indoors I have a variety of colored walls and ceilings. everything from Persian yellow to Tiffany blue. not possible with any real clarity. I feel it has to do with a specific wavelength of light from the sun that is not indoors at the levels needed. some digging did bring up that radiation is viewable with the naked eye damaging of course but we are not blind to it, it's about getting the angle right, much like a polarized filter I'd imagine. so what frequency is needed (small or large enough) to make it into the eye structure without carrying it's own image.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

The posts and links in these threads may be helpful-
Firstly-
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=406505&highlight=coloured+goggles

E.g. post #15

“See this article:
http://www.iscc.org/jubilee2006/abst...abAbstract.pdf

Just found something incredible! Despite all conventional wisdom, humans can see UV light down to 300 nm! The lens of the eye blocks 300 - 400 nm, but after cataract surgery, people discover they can see UV light. It is not perceived as a new color, though . It appears whitish-blue or whitish-violet. Here are my sources:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...ience.research

http://neuronresearch.net/vision/fil...comparison.htm

In light of that (no pun intended), I will probably test the near IR end of the spectrum in my experiment. “

And secondly-
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=423085&highlight=longest+wavelength

Post #3



Humans have a lot of alleles for the cone (color) pigments, some rare ones extend the visible spectrum slightly. This also results in a very few women having tetrachromatic color vision, and it is also the root cause of color blindness. Rod cell pigments do not absorb longer wavelengths - google for the Purkinje effect - so they probably do not extend vision in the direction you are interested in.

Note: there is an optical problem with extending the range of visible wavelengths - an image that is correctly focused on the fovea (cone cells) for 500nm light willl not be focused well at 1000nm, assuming humans could see 1000nm light which they cannot, AFAIK.

See this for the 'five site rule' on the origins and evolution of color vision in mammals
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...tract/15/5/560

P.S. Hi rhody and thanks, wish I had more time to spend on this at the mo, soon maybe.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

A couple more links. I see the links in the posts I transcribed didn't work, but work via the thread link.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T9N-4417F5N-D&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1468534480&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=32e26e2a3b50fc39066fc9bf754e60a0&searchtype=a
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_sensing_in_snakes

 

[rhody]

Madhatter,

I think that Fuzzy, Bobze, and I or anyone else following this thread will not get to the "root" of your strange sight perceptions unless you provide us with one of those magic, "a picture is worth a thousand words images". Can you google/images or Google/video to find something remotely close to what you are trying to describe to us.

Second, when you were little, were you a premature, if so, did you get oxygen ? I was thinking about this: http://www.vahealth.org/vnsp/documents/2009/birthdefects/English%20-%20PDF%20-%20For%20Web/Retrolental%20Fibroplasia.pdf"
I am drawing at straws here, the only inkling I have about everything you have said so far that relates to synesthesia is how you describe seeing blood red in letters when viewing text in a dark room, everything else seems to relate to your unusual sense of vision. Even if what you are experiencing is NOT related to synesthesia, you have tweaked enough interest here to assist you in uncovering an explanation, however odd it may be.

One last question, as a child for whatever reason, did you stare at the sun, solar or lunar eclipses for extended periods, again, I am grasping, trying to find a clue that will lead us to what you are experiencing. Finally, do you know of anyone else who has the same vision perception that you do ?

Rhody...

P.S. I am not forgetting what you said about emotion and music, that appears to be a valid synesthetic trait.

 

[madhatter106]

Madhatter,

I think that Fuzzy, Bobze, and I or anyone else following this thread will not get to the "root" of your strange sight perceptions unless you provide us with one of those magic, "a picture is worth a thousand words images". Can you google/images or Google/video to find something remotely close to what you are trying to describe to us.

Second, when you were little, were you a premature, if so, did you get oxygen ? I was thinking about this: http://www.vahealth.org/vnsp/documents/2009/birthdefects/English%20-%20PDF%20-%20For%20Web/Retrolental%20Fibroplasia.pdf"
I am drawing at straws here, the only inkling I have about everything you have said so far that relates to synesthesia is how you describe seeing blood red in letters when viewing text in a dark room, everything else seems to relate to your unusual sense of vision. Even if what you are experiencing is NOT related to synesthesia, you have tweaked enough interest here to assist you in uncovering an explanation, however odd it may be.

One last question, as a child for whatever reason, did you stare at the sun, solar or lunar eclipses for extended periods, again, I am grasping, trying to find a clue that will lead us to what you are experiencing. Finally, do you know of anyone else who has the same vision perception that you do ?

Rhody...

P.S. I am not forgetting what you said about emotion and music, that appears to be a valid synesthetic trait.

I appreciate the interest and I do find this fascinating as I love to experiment.
No I didn't stare into the sun, used the shadow box for eclipses as a kid. For as long as I can recall I always noticed this, it's most pronounced at night. I do have a light sensitivity at night, not exactly night blindness as the ophthalmologist I went to a couple yrs ago said what I described isn't that. he also wasn't interested in my questions.

If I'm in a lit room and the lights go out, it's a near instant switch to seeing again. it's a strange sensation. driving at night is better for me if there is low ambient light vs the bright light. it's a bit too much as the contrast is brutal. I can not stand the new LED lights on auto's now. the lights are an annoying purple hue that pierces my skull. also red lights are brighter to me than blue although my electric razor charger has this blue led that is just as intense as the red led's.

I was doing some visual tests with the IR remotes here and I noticed that it's my left eye that see's the light not my right. I have an acer laptop that has an IR sensor that randomly blinks in the front panel and I can see a faint red light every time it blinks.

when I was a kid I thought I had some type of color blindness as there is what I thought was a difference in color hues between my eyes. however I pass all such tests with both eyes. my left eye see's an additional color of what I call a red/purple hue, like a filter mask in photoshop at 20%. I can easily separate colors and hues accurately, I took this test yrs ago that had 100 or more colors that needed to be arranged by hue in order and was able to do so without mistakes.

Here's a good example, whenever I've had to drive in heavy fog at night I prefer the lights off and the red-orange parking lights over yellow fogs for visibility.

In reading up on the tetrachromat I wouldn't be surprised if that was what I have. sure I'm a male but I do have an uncanny ability to distinguish color and tone. from hot to cold, colors have an underlying tone. my mother shares this with me as well, my dad thought we were messing with him when we'd discuss color tones and shades for fabric and paints, and even planting in the yard.

take for example the color blue, there is a clear marker between a red/blue or orange/blue even a blue/blue etc... it's bugs me to no end to see an orange/blue matched to purple/blue one is warm the other is cold, it's like shades of black and gray. seeing someone wear what they think is black but is a blue/black pair of pants with a brown/black jacket makes me cringe. I've come to realize that most everyone doesn't see this tone variation. to me it's as plain as day.

Now I'm going to also look further into this tetrachromat gene as my son who's 7 has a some medical conditions that point to genes. he's been preliminarily diagnosed with aspergers but also displays some other traits that don't fit. in my research it's tied to excess chromosomes. more research is being done.

here's a link I found that explains tetrachromatic vision too: http://www.colourlovers.com/blog/2010/03/18/tetrachromacy-in-humans-you-may-have-super-color-vision

I'll add more as time allows...

any testing ideas?

oh and in the dark I can see red better than the green/blues i.e. differentiating between blue/green takes a bit longer where red is much stronger and stands out easily. yellows become near invisible.

 

[kchiki]

I've been reading through this thread and definitely don't want to derail any conversation about MadHatter's experiences with vision, etc. But this forum has the most recent posts of any I've found about synesthesia and honestly, has the best scientific approach to mapping it out and understanding it.

I only realized a few months ago that not everyone sees colors for letters, numbers, days of the week and months of the year. I actually found out that there is a name for it completely by accident while taking a personality quiz online.

I've gone through the battery of tests at synesthete.org and scored better than even I thought I would. Here's a summary of what I've learned is synesthetic about how I perceive the world.

• Letters and Numbers -> Colors
• Days of the Week, Months of the Year -> Colors
• Pain -> Colors
• People (Personalities, I suppose) -> Colors
• Sound -> Physical Sensations
• Musical Tones -> Colors

To further elaborate, harsh sounds feel like sand or grit peppering my skin from the direction of the sound. Some softer sounds are more like a very mild tingle, always from the direction of the sound. Another interesting thing that I'm not sure is synesthetic is that if I'm startled (for instance, if a car stops suddenly in front of mine in traffic), I physically feel a strong harsh tingle all over my face, arms, hands, chest, etc.

Pain evokes color in my mind's eye, usually warm bright tones.

I automatically attribute colors to people. I myself am a deep purple.

I have very few "cool" colors in my letters and numbers (meaning, blues, greens, purples). The ones I do have are very dark. Most of my letters and numbers, and all of my weekdays are reds, oranges, yellows, browns and white, which are none of my favorite colors. (If I could change them, I would have mostly greens, blues and purples!) My months are the only ones that have any soft colors, and they're only February (pale blue) and April (pink).

Music evokes colors in my head to the extent that different tones make me "think" in different colors. For instance, a song on the radio may make all my thoughts blue-ish grey.

I don't physically see any colors with my eyes. All of my colors are strictly internal.

I've done a very informal poll in my social circle and have found one synesthete on the same level as me, and one very mild one, but that's it so far. I have yet to ask my father and sister whether they do it too, but once I do, I'll report back.

I think it's great the way Rhody and some others are approaching this, as it's completely fascinating to me to experience it. It's completely involuntary and I can't change any of it willingly. 2 will always be yellow and S will always be deep, dark blue.

 

[rhody]

I've been reading through this thread and definitely don't want to derail any conversation about MadHatter's experiences with vision, etc. But this forum has the most recent posts of any I've found about synesthesia and honestly, has the best scientific approach to mapping it out and understanding it.

I only realized a few months ago that not everyone sees colors for letters, numbers, days of the week and months of the year. I actually found out that there is a name for it completely by accident while taking a personality quiz online.

I've gone through the battery of tests at synesthete.org and scored better than even I thought I would. Here's a summary of what I've learned is synesthetic about how I perceive the world.

• Letters and Numbers -> Colors
• Days of the Week, Months of the Year -> Colors
• Pain -> Colors
• People (Personalities, I suppose) -> Colors
• Sound -> Physical Sensations
• Musical Tones -> Colors

To further elaborate, harsh sounds feel like sand or grit peppering my skin from the direction of the sound. Some softer sounds are more like a very mild tingle, always from the direction of the sound. Another interesting thing that I'm not sure is synesthetic is that if I'm startled (for instance, if a car stops suddenly in front of mine in traffic), I physically feel a strong harsh tingle all over my face, arms, hands, chest, etc.

Pain evokes color in my mind's eye, usually warm bright tones.

I automatically attribute colors to people. I myself am a deep purple.

I have very few "cool" colors in my letters and numbers (meaning, blues, greens, purples). The ones I do have are very dark. Most of my letters and numbers, and all of my weekdays are reds, oranges, yellows, browns and white, which are none of my favorite colors. (If I could change them, I would have mostly greens, blues and purples!) My months are the only ones that have any soft colors, and they're only February (pale blue) and April (pink).

Music evokes colors in my head to the extent that different tones make me "think" in different colors. For instance, a song on the radio may make all my thoughts blue-ish grey.

I don't physically see any colors with my eyes. All of my colors are strictly internal.

I've done a very informal poll in my social circle and have found one synesthete on the same level as me, and one very mild one, but that's it so far. I have yet to ask my father and sister whether they do it too, but once I do, I'll report back.

I think it's great the way Rhody and some others are approaching this, as it's completely fascinating to me to experience it. It's completely involuntary and I can't change any of it willingly. 2 will always be yellow and S will always be deep, dark blue.

kchiki,

First, welcome to PF, as have so succinctly stated there is a wealth of knowledge and experience in this thread, that I discovered I have a mild form of color grapheme synesthesia (mild pinks and greens when viewing light letters and dark backgrounds), and if it were not for reading, posting, questioning, and exploring we would not have this wonderful body of knowledge and experience here. Waht even has fragmentary music -> color synesthesia, something no one has acknowledged or identified officially yet. It seems the possibilities for it's expression are endless, and not easily categorized, because the list of attributes simply keeps growing and growing.

There are many PF members, waht, zoobyshoe, fuzzyfelt, Rasalhague to mention a few of the important contributors to this thread, they should be given credit as well, but your complement is acknowledged and appreciated.

You seem comfortable with your own forms of it, repeated below:

Letters and Numbers -> Colors
Days of the Week, Months of the Year -> Colors
Pain -> Colors
People (Personalities, I suppose) -> Colors
Sound -> Physical Sensations
Musical Tones -> Colors

Could you elaborate a bit on more examples involving Sound -> Physical Sensations form of it ?

Rhody...

P.S. How did you discover Physics Forums ?

 

[kchiki]

I'm not sure how else to explain it other than what I previously posted;

To further elaborate, harsh sounds feel like sand or grit peppering my skin from the direction of the sound. Some softer sounds are more like a very mild tingle, always from the direction of the sound. Another interesting thing that I'm not sure is synesthetic is that if I'm startled (for instance, if a car stops suddenly in front of mine in traffic), I physically feel a strong harsh tingle all over my face, arms, hands, chest, etc.

but I can offer a few more examples.

Gunshots (thankfully I'm not around gunfire very often), cars backfiring, very loud sudden noises feel a lot like being pelted with sand or very small hard objects. It's almost like being pricked in a million different places on the surface of my skin, at the same time, from one direction, and lasts for a comparable duration to the original sound itself.

I also get a very mild physical sensation from less dramatic noises, like a Coke can falling into the bin of a drink machine, for example.

Another example; I work in IT, and currently on my left is a running pc that makes a low constant fan noise. I don't notice it for the most part, but while I was typing out my original post and was trying to think of how to explain the sound -> physical sensation experience, I realized that I "feel" that low constant noise on my left side. It's very hard to describe. It's almost like having a very, very mild goosebumps sensation on that arm, shoulder, leg and that side of my neck, face and ribcage. It's not unpleasant and the only reason I really noticed it at all was because I was focusing on explaining the sensations in the first place. I don't feel it at all on my right.

I startle easily and when I get startled, I do get a very intense pin-prick/"pelted with sand or tiny pebbles" feeling from the general direction of whatever startled me. The intensity of the physical feeling is directly proportional to how badly I'm startled.

I actually found Physics Forums by searching synesthesia on Google.

This thread is incredibly long and I'm still reading through some of the later entries, but I didn't mean to not acknowledge any other contributors. You (Rhody) were the first poster that showed a very large interest in coordinating symptoms/characteristics and so that's why you stuck out in my mind.

 

[rhody]

kchiki,

Thanks for you input, after reading a summary of your sensations, and I interpret what you said to mean physical sensation due to sound when you said,

"I startle easily and when I get startled, I do get a very intense pin-prick/"pelted with sand or tiny pebbles" feeling from the general direction of whatever startled me. The intensity of the physical feeling is directly proportional to how badly I'm startled."

is it the same sensation "physically" as it would be if you were actually pelted with sand, or in your "minds eye" so to speak.

You also should review Fuzzyfelt's thread below:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=413657"

and listen and then watch some of the videos, and report what you feel, sense.
It would be an interesting experience for you, and I am sure we may discover some new things especially since you have multiple forms of synesthesia.

I guessed "google" was you discovery method, that must mean our thread is fairly highly ranked. I hope you stay awhile and browse other forums, their is a ton of good information to be had here. Be sure to use the advanced search feature and type in members ID's who post interesting stuff. Chances are you will find more interesting topics.

Rhody...

 

[kchiki]

The all-knowing, all-seeing Google, heh.

It is a real physical sensation on my skin, akin to goosebumps, chills, etc. So colors are only in my mind's eye but sounds are a very real physical sensation. Strange, huh?

I just got ahold of my younger sister and she associates colors with weekdays and some letters and months. But apparently not to the extent that I do.

I'll definitely check out Fuzzyfelt's thread. You're right in that should be an interesting experience. As I said, I've only been exploring this for a few months, all while working full-time, parenting, etc. My son is almost 3. I'm very interested in whether he has any synesthetic traits or not. My husband does not and my Father doesn't either. My mother is deceased, so we may never know if she did or not.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Thanks for checking the musical chills thread, kchiki.

Also, just a thought, but I wonder if synaesthesia, or an awareness of synaesthesia might affect how children are taught the alphabet or months, etc., e.g. by allowing children to select colours to trace letters.

 

[kchiki]

That's an interesting thought! I haven't asked my son yet what color "A" is but may ask him to see how long he considers an answer. If he comes up with a color, I'm definitely open to letting him use that color to draw it out and practice.

 

[waht]

The all-knowing, all-seeing Google, heh.

It is a real physical sensation on my skin, akin to goosebumps, chills, etc. So colors are only in my mind's eye but sounds are a very real physical sensation. Strange, huh?

I just got ahold of my younger sister and she associates colors with weekdays and some letters and months. But apparently not to the extent that I do.

I'll definitely check out Fuzzyfelt's thread. You're right in that should be an interesting experience. As I said, I've only been exploring this for a few months, all while working full-time, parenting, etc. My son is almost 3. I'm very interested in whether he has any synesthetic traits or not. My husband does not and my Father doesn't either. My mother is deceased, so we may never know if she did or not.

That's an interesting thought! I haven't asked my son yet what color "A" is but may ask him to see how long he considers an answer. If he comes up with a color, I'm definitely open to letting him use that color to draw it out and practice.

Welcome to PF kchiki, your post is highly appreciated.

You could get involved with your son by writing a journal about colors he is exposed to throughout his early childhood. Take note of the color of walls in his room, the color of toys he plays with, the color of books, and major cartoon characters. Once he will attend grade school, note the color of the school, the hallways, and his classroom. Or take pictures if possible.

Why am I suggesting this? I've tried to understand my situation, how and when my letter to color mappings were made. When I think about it a little too hard I get this:

About seven letters in the alphabet are yellow of distinct shades. The grade school I went to was also yellow whose shade closely resembles letters 'a' and 'u'. The hallways in the school were darker yellow about the same shade as letter 'e' or 'q'. My grade school had a brown signet with a giant letter 'k' in it. My synesthesia color for 'k' is also brown. When I was little I used to call my dad 'tata' which is similar to 'papa'. But since my dad wore blue flannel shirts all the time, the synasthesia letter for 't' is also blue.

I don't know if this is just a fluke, it could very be, I'm just speculating. Or was this synesthesia in the making? I'll probably never know.

But that's why I've suggested to keep a journal. Maybe something interesting will show up.

 

[rhody]

Why am I suggesting this? I've tried to understand my situation, how and when my letter to color mappings were made. When I think about it a little too hard I get this:

About seven letters in the alphabet are yellow of distinct shades. The grade school I went to was also yellow whose shade closely resembles letters 'a' and 'u'. The hallways in the school were darker yellow about the same shade as letter 'e' or 'q'. My grade school had a brown signet with a giant letter 'k' in it. My synesthesia color for 'k' is also brown. When I was little I used to call my dad 'tata' which is similar to 'papa'. But since my dad wore blue flannel shirts all the time, the synasthesia letter for 't' is also blue.

I don't know if this is just a fluke, it could very be, I'm just speculating. Or was this synesthesia in the making? I'll probably never know.

But that's why I've suggested to keep a journal. Maybe something interesting will show up.

waht,

Holy ... ! The level of detail and memory you provide associated with the colors and large letter K signet is absolutely brilliant ! When and how did this all "click" in your mind, or have you just been hiding this from us ?

I am often reminded how synesthesia is not carved in stone and that it is documented that people who meditate for a decade or more seem somewhere along the way to develop multiple forms of it in the process. I have not seen a shred of evidence of "rapidly emerging synesthesia" which may shed some light on the process, we need an experiment that allows for a rapid, testable, and repeatable experiment that does this. Maybe from someone who is thinking deeply about this. Waht, you are on a roll, how about giving it a shot ?

Maybe our plastic brains have ways of "imprinting" these wandering neurological pathways, better yet, since as Merzenich's describes in his research, that brain maps change every couple of weeks, this fact is now beyond a shadow of doubt based on competition for valuable neurological "real estate", that nagging question that keeps driving my curiosity, is that some deeper yet unidentified QM and electromagnetic principle is at work here. It drives me nuts, I feel like an ant on a log and unable to truly "step back" and get the big picture based on more fundamental principles. It makes me that much more determined than ever, and with a bit of OCD in my makeup, it helps, hehe. I will not quit, but keep exploring uncharted avenues and dark alleys looking for clues.

Rhody...

P.S.

Waht, did you get chills when you realized this ?

 

[waht]

Holy ... ! The level of detail and memory you provide associated with the colors and large letter K signet is absolutely brilliant ! When and how did this all "click" in your mind, or have you just been hiding this from us ?

Thanks Rhody. I have a lot of vivid memories from childhood. But the idea certainly didn't click over night, but rather, it's a culmination of giving it lots of thought and introspection. A good place to start is to try and remember the time when I first experienced the letter colors. I'm pretty certain that it was first in that grade school I've described, around 2nd or 3rd grade.

I am often reminded how synesthesia is not carved in stone and that it is documented that people who meditate for a decade or more seem somewhere along the way to develop multiple forms of it in the process. I have not seen a shred of evidence of "rapidly emerging synesthesia" which may shed some light on the process, we need an experiment that allows for a rapid, testable, and repeatable experiment that does this. Maybe from someone who is thinking deeply about this. Waht, you are on a roll, how about giving it a shot ?

Me too. Ever since I found about synesthesia, it's been bugging me why those colors? And I haven't come across a theory about it. But one thing I know is that the alphabet was one of the first things I learned and memorized. This suggest that there is some mechanism that allowed colors to permanently hitch a ride on letters.

There is another thing I remember, but I didn't want to say before because it could be too compelling. In the grade school there was a giant chart in classroom with four flamboyant geometrical shapes: green rectangle, blue square, red triangle, and a yellow circle. Well, guess what I perceive the synasthesia colors for these shapes? A rectangle is green, square is blue, and a triangle is redish, but circle is different. A circle is a bright white, same as letter 'c' the first letter for "circle."

And so, I suspect the colors of these first three shapes came from that chart I have been exposed to.

But once again, this is a just an introspective analysis based on memories I have from the past. I acknowledge it's not a double blind experiment.

Maybe our plastic brains have ways of "imprinting" these wandering neurological pathways, better yet, since as Merzenich's describes in his research, that brain maps change every couple of weeks, this fact is now beyond a shadow of doubt based on competition for valuable neurological "real estate", that nagging question that keeps driving my curiosity, is that some deeper yet unidentified QM and electromagnetic principle is at work here.

Perhaps in form of chaos, fractals, and wave interference there is some resemblance. I haven't read Merzenich, so perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't think there is any direct relationship between the lower level description of reality, and the higher level vast network of interconnected neurons in the brain.

It drives me nuts, I feel like an ant on a log and unable to truly "step back" and get the big picture based on more fundamental principles. It makes me that much more determined than ever, and with a bit of OCD in my makeup, it helps, hehe. I will not quit, but keep exploring uncharted avenues and dark alleys looking for clues.

Me as well. One thing I've devoted my whole life to is to learn and find out more about the world. I think that's what makes it fun.

Waht, did you get chills when you realized this ?

Not as much as about synesthesia. That was fun to find to out.

waht

 

[kchiki]

That's very interesting, waht! I have what I consider a large amount of yellow in my graphemes and weekdays as well. I have 5 letters of various shades of yellow, 3 numbers and 2 weekdays. None of them are exactly the same shade. I'm going to have to think back and try to remember if I have any early associations with any of my colors.

I asked my son this morning out of curiosity, "What color is 'A'?" He thought for a few seconds and said "Green."

I said, "A is green?" He said, "Yeah!...No, F!"

I said, "F is green?" and he said, "Yeah!" with a smile.

I said, "What color is 'O'?" Again, he thought and said, "Blue." I said, "O is blue?" andhe said, "Yeah."

I wrote them down to keep track but he's not quite 3 and I don't want him to feel like I'm quizzing him. I want to approach it as non-chalantly as possible.

His bedroom has 2 light blue walls and 2 light green walls, but we were in the livingroom at the time. The livingroom is full of earthy tones and reds.

Still too early to tell if he is synesthetic from so few questions but it's intriguing to think about.

Has anyone here mapped out their graphemes/colors? I mapped mine out in Photoshop before I did the battery on synesthete.org.

Oh, quick anecdote, heh. My friend who associates colors as much as I do sent me her weekdays to compare and we realized we share a common color for Saturday. She laughed and said "We should both wear that color on Saturday!" however, she lives in Australia and I live in Florida, U.S., so I had to ask "Your Saturday or mine??" Heh.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Thanks for the feedback, kchiki, and that your vivid childhood memories are really interesting, thanks, waht. Also thanks, rhody, for mentioning the musical chills thread, I forgot to say so sooner.