Taiwanese student protest

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  • #1
wukunlin
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Although I haven't been there for a long time. It is still sad to see things like this happening in my birthplace.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...-on-trade-protesters-in-cabinet-compound.html

There has been a lot of protesters mainly made up of university students in Taiwan over some trade agreements that the current KMT (romanticized initials for chinese nationalist party) government is in a rush to have it signed with the communist chinese government. It looks like the KMT are doing their best to hide the details of the trade agreement because it is extremely one-sided in favour of chinese businesses.

From what I know, the main motive to finalize this trade agreement is that, without the support from china, KMT is not confident with their political future. They already had to move the election date to the middle of university exams (14th of January, prior elections have been on the 20th of March) during the 2012 election to win by a slim margin. ma ying-jeou's aprroval rating recently dropped as low as 9.2%. Even people within the kmt want him gone. he is desperately looking for help from beijing to maintain his political career. (Not like he is capable of doing anything other than being a politician)

I don't want to draw parallel between this and Ukraine because there are obvious differences and things haven't escalate to that scale (...yet). I wish these type of violet dismissal of protesters will not be a common sight, but given the history of KMT... well... I guess I can only wait and see.
 

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  • #2
wukunlin
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They are pretty happy about using force on students who were peacefully protesting
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/world/asia/taiwan-defends-use-of-force-against-protesters.html


ma ying-jeou says he is willing to talk with representatives of the protestors.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-...t-president-over-deal-201432575841183391.html
If we dial back to 1947, the kmt also agreed to talk with community leaders of taiwan, except that never happened because the Taiwanese were instantly gunned down as soon as they set their feet into the "meeting room." That followed by a massacre throughout the island. Obviously they have no military power to do that these days... as long as the chinese doesn't lend them a hand.

Speaking about the chinese, they are now saying these protests justifies dictatorship
http://qz.com/191285/to-mainland-china-taiwans-student-protests-prove-that-democracy-doesnt-work/
 
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  • #3
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Many people in several different countries have been protesting in the last year or so. Here in Brazil people still are (for pretty much the same reason), people in Ukraine are, Egyptians were, etc. I see it as something good. I hope that in future the world will be a better place and all this mess will have been worth it

cb
 
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  • #5
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The China-Taiwan relationship is strange. My Chinese teachers get weird every time the issue was brought up. Their demeanor changes, and while still trying to be nice, they basically tell nobody to talk about it. Especially the discussion of Taiwan being part of China. Are the Chinese basically being brought up to believe that Taiwan is part of China, and the Taiwanese being brought up to believe the opposite? I don't want to say brainwashed, but their attitude connotes brainwashing from my perspective, insofar as their strong, unwavering stance one way or the other, and how they make it such a touchy subject.
I mean, if they wanted to talk to me about the US annexation of Hawaii, I'd be glad to hear about either side of the issue and consider the evidence. They don't seem to feel that way.
 
  • #6
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The China-Taiwan relationship is strange. My Chinese teachers get weird every time the issue was brought up. Their demeanor changes, and while still trying to be nice, they basically tell nobody to talk about it. Especially the discussion of Taiwan being part of China. Are the Chinese basically being brought up to believe that Taiwan is part of China, and the Taiwanese being brought up to believe the opposite? I don't want to say brainwashed, but their attitude connotes brainwashing from my perspective, insofar as their strong, unwavering stance one way or the other, and how they make it such a touchy subject.
I mean, if they wanted to talk to me about the US annexation of Hawaii, I'd be glad to hear about either side of the issue and consider the evidence. They don't seem to feel that way.
I think that official stance of gov in Taipei is that there is one China and that they are the continuation of the legal gov.
 
  • #7
wukunlin
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The China-Taiwan relationship is strange. My Chinese teachers get weird every time the issue was brought up. Their demeanor changes, and while still trying to be nice, they basically tell nobody to talk about it. Especially the discussion of Taiwan being part of China. Are the Chinese basically being brought up to believe that Taiwan is part of China, and the Taiwanese being brought up to believe the opposite? I don't want to say brainwashed, but their attitude connotes brainwashing from my perspective, insofar as their strong, unwavering stance one way or the other, and how they make it such a touchy subject.
I mean, if they wanted to talk to me about the US annexation of Hawaii, I'd be glad to hear about either side of the issue and consider the evidence. They don't seem to feel that way.

I can give you my view of it. In both China and Taiwan people are brought up to believe that Taiwan is part of China. When I was in Taiwan we are suppose to call the founder of the chinese nationalist party "father of our nation." We could literally get smacked across the face if we disagree.

Historically, the republic of china came into existence (1911) when Taiwan was still a Japanese colony (1895-1945), so "Taiwan has always been part of China" is completely BS to me. At the end of WWII, the SF treaties says something like the UN let the nationalist chinese government temporarily maintain order in Taiwan (it was then referred as "Formosa," a historical European name for the island), and let the people of the island decide its future. Except the nationalist have treated it as their own backyard. Hyper inflation and corruption eventually lead to the unrest during the 228 massacre which is basically the government set up a "talk" while sending troops from china to gun down anyone on the street. About the "temporary thing," well they are still here and saying they own everything.
 
  • #9
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I can give you my view of it. In both China and Taiwan people are brought up to believe that Taiwan is part of China. When I was in Taiwan we are suppose to call the founder of the chinese nationalist party "father of our nation." We could literally get smacked across the face if we disagree.

Historically, the republic of china came into existence (1911) when Taiwan was still a Japanese colony (1895-1945), so "Taiwan has always been part of China" is completely BS to me. At the end of WWII, the SF treaties says something like the UN let the nationalist chinese government temporarily maintain order in Taiwan (it was then referred as "Formosa," a historical European name for the island), and let the people of the island decide its future. Except the nationalist have treated it as their own backyard. Hyper inflation and corruption eventually lead to the unrest during the 228 massacre which is basically the government set up a "talk" while sending troops from china to gun down anyone on the street. About the "temporary thing," well they are still here and saying they own everything.

Hey I know, how historically Chinese Taiwan is. ;) I had the most fun reading about Koxinga, whose different aspect of reign are being used as strong historical argument, by Mainland China, Taiwan and Japan.
 
  • #10
wukunlin
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koxinga (serious, this is one of the worst romanization ever, it sounds nothing like how it is pronounced in mandarin or any chinese dialect I know of) is little more than a chinese pirate that annoyed the Dutch who tried to colonize Taiwan in his time.
The funny part is how our textbooks spent chapters after chapters on how he heroically drove the Dutch away. Historical records only show a cease fire agreement between the two and the Dutch eventually decided to leave on their own terms.
 
  • #11
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koxinga (serious, this is one of the worst romanization ever, it sounds nothing like how it is pronounced in mandarin or any chinese dialect I know of) is little more than a chinese pirate that annoyed the Dutch who tried to colonize Taiwan in his time.
The funny part is how our textbooks spent chapters after chapters on how he heroically drove the Dutch away. Historical records only show a cease fire agreement between the two and the Dutch eventually decided to leave on their own terms.

Do Taiwanese textbooks mention why Japanese can also use that historical figure? ;)
 
  • #12
wukunlin
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I don't really understand your question, use him for what? His only association with Japan is that his mother is Japanese, but I don't see how that is relevant to anything.
 
  • #13
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I don't really understand your question, use him for what? His only association with Japan is that his mother is Japanese, but I don't see how that is relevant to anything.
I've read that he was born in Japan from Japanese mother is surprising for Mainland Chinese, had no idea how it is mentioned in Taiwan.

(citizenship by blood or by soil? ;) )

Relevant? Well, technically speaking with only moderate stretching history, his conquest can be used to show that mainland China does not have much stronger claim than Japan.
 
  • #14
wukunlin
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Interesting, I saw absolutely no mention of his birthplace in Taiwanese text books.

Still, these "claims" from history is nonsensical to me. I mean, look at the last imperial dynasty of ancient China:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_dynasty
Today part of:
Bhutan
Burma
China
Hong Kong
India
Kazakhstan
Kyrgyzstan
Macao
Mongolia
Pakistan
Russia
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Vietnam
So they can have fun making their claims lol
 
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  • #15
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Interesting, I saw absolutely no mention of his birthday in Taiwanese text books.
Well, after learning a bit about school curriculum in other countries, I have to say that I have quite positive image of textbooks in my country (Poland). I would not give them highest grade for neglecting a few events, but it was within acceptable efforts to make them not too thick.

Still, these "claims" from history is nonsensical to me. I mean, look at the last imperial dynasty of ancient China:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_dynasty

So they can have fun making their claims lol
You know, some govs have to use historical arguments. Consent of governed is not something that for example PRC would like to raise in a discussion. ;)

Anyway, shouldn't it be argument for rule of Mongol horde over big part of Eurasia? :D
 
  • #16
wukunlin
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Anyway, shouldn't it be argument for rule of Mongol horde over big part of Eurasia? :D

Exactly XD

And since all modern human originated from Africa, there should only be one country on Earth :rofl:
 
  • #17
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Pictures of unarmed students getting beaten bloody by riot police (DO NOT LOOK IF YOU FIND SIGHTS OF BLOOD DISTURBING):
http://revolution-news.com/150-taiwanese-student-protesters-injured-police-executive-congress/ [Broken]
 
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  • #19
Nice to hear from a fellow Taiwanese(though if you identify as something else let me know). I was actually there for some of the legislative protests.

As someone whose approaching Taiwan from a leftist angle, Taiwan does fascinate me. I agree that the claims that China's claims over taiwan( or the ROC's claims over china) have this nationalistic bent to them. I'm sympathetic to Taiwanese identity but it is an identity with specific social experiences involved.

What frustrates me most is this ethnic chauvinism though(mostly from the Han Chinese). Because if the succession states ideology they have to claim all the territories currently controlled have always been that way even if it's factually untrue. if you want to get technical then yes my blood originates from the region known as China. That's just a statement, not something that intrinsically leads to kinship on that front.
 
  • #21
Yeah heard about those. Also saw some right wing ultra nationalists
 
  • #23
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Can't go wrong with Japanese media for info about Taiwan:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2014/04/01/commentary/is-china-losing-taiwan/

TLDR: we like to keep out democracy and for type economy, trade agreements with US and Japan would be more beneficial than with china
I consider as funny analogy, that in Ukraine that was especially the young generation that insist really strongly on pro-West course.

By occasion there is one thing that's unclear to me, concerning Taiwan-PRC relations. Why Taiwan did not invest in second strike capability? (Nuclear warheads are too expensive? Would alienate Americans?)

Second thing that leaves me puzzled is level of nationalism and hostility in relations between South Korea, Japan and Taiwan. In Europe, we also had quite high level of nationalism and historical grudges, but it was anyway possible to build a coalition of civilized countries against Russian imperialism.
 
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  • #24
wukunlin
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IWhy Taiwan did not invest in second strike capability? (Nuclear warheads are too expensive? Would alienate Americans?)
Yeah, the US doesn't allow it. The only reason the chinese nationalist government (I'll call it ROC government for short) is allowed to exist is because the US threatened to take action if the communist tried to completely eradicate them at the end of that chinese civil war.
Every year the ROC government pays billions and billions of cash to US for outdated weapons, not because the weapons are useful or anything but really just as an appreciation for allowing them to exist. I remember a couple of years ago, the ROC government paid a few more billions of dollars for "research costs" for some 30 year old missiles or something, even the folks in Beijing found it laughable.

Second thing that leaves me puzzled is level of nationalism and hostility in relations between South Korea, Japan and Taiwan. In Europe, we also had quite high level of nationalism and historical grudges, but it was anyway possible to build a coalition of civilized countries against Russian imperialism.
I guess it is mainly because there is no common enemy. When everyone in the country is brought with the type of nationalism that pretty much lead to superiority complex, it is hard to make friends
 
  • #25
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http://online.wsj.com/news/articles...0001424052702303847804579478641780000548.html
The draft says the cabinet will be legally required to engage lawmakers and the public before and after signing any agreements with China in future. Taiwan's intelligence agency will also be involved in two reviews before any agreement is completed, to make sure the island's security won't be compromised, the draft says.
Looks like we are getting some where. Some where that actually sounds like democracy.
 

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