Teen suspended for religious nose ring

  • Thread starter Thread starter Evo
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Ring Teen
Click For Summary
The discussion centers around the suspension of 14-year-old Ariana Iacono from Clayton High School for wearing a nose piercing, which she claims is part of her religious expression under the Church of Body Modification. Participants debate whether this church qualifies as a legitimate religion deserving of First Amendment protections. Many argue that the school's dress code is being enforced selectively, with some suggesting that if the church were more widely recognized, the situation would be different. Others contend that the church's legitimacy is questionable, viewing it as a potential loophole to bypass dress codes. The conversation also touches on broader themes of religious freedom, the role of schools in regulating personal expression, and the implications of allowing exceptions to dress codes based on self-identified religious beliefs. Some participants express frustration with perceived double standards in how different religions are treated, while others emphasize the need for consistent application of dress codes across all students. Overall, the thread reflects a complex interplay between individual rights, institutional authority, and the definition of religion in contemporary society.
  • #91
jarednjames said:
Exactly, as I showed above. To rule religions can be allowed to override rules such as dress code simply discriminates against non-religious. But that's ok of course because the constitution allows it.
Exactly, to allow a child to say "rules don't apply to me" because they claim some special religious status is wrong.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #92
Evo said:
Good enough for what? You think that dress codes should not apply universally to all students equally or that they should? Should we abolish all religion affiliated trappings from *PUBLIC* schools? Religion has no place in a tax payer funded public school and a person's religion should not trump school rules, if we really want to follow separation of church and state. Of course, that's how I personally feel about it.
But *PUBLIC* schools is an extension of the government, and case law has extended the prohibition of any law 'respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof' to local and state governments.

The one must determine if this is the case, and whether or not there is an actual case of infringement.

I was also informed when I was a high school student that students (children, or those not legally adults) were not endowed with the rights as specified in the US Constitution, i.e., the rights applied to adults, not children. I believe case law has changed that somewhat in 4 decades.
 
  • #93
Evo said:
Good enough for what? You think that dress codes should not apply universally to all students equally or that they should? Should we abolish all religion affiliated trappings from *PUBLIC* schools? Religion has no place in a tax payer funded public school and a person's religion should not trump school rules, if we really want to follow separation of church and state. Of course, that's how I personally feel about it.

I think that by and large, dress codes should be abolished. This is my opinion and doesn't need to be cited.
 
  • #94
Astronuc said:
But *PUBLIC* schools is an extension of the government, and case law has extended the prohibition of any law 'respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof' to local and state governments.
Following a dress code is not prohibiting her practicing her religion in this case. As I pointed out earlier, the school is not prohibiting her from having her nose pierced, it is prohibiting the wearing of jewelry in her nose, which I would I bet my life on is *not* specified that she must do. It's not the "Church of Body Jewelry". If it was, then she might have a case for demanding special treatment.

Jared has a very good point. The law that allows special treatment and exemptions for people practicing their 'religion' should extend equally to the non-religious, it is discriminating against those that choose not to follow a religion, something that the 'Founding Fathers" failed to recognize. It's time to throw this religious exemption out because it now discriminates against those that choose to practice no religion.

Here is a couple destined for each other.

Her

piercedwoman.jpg


Him

[PLAIN]http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/5513/tatoosvn3.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #95
Evo said:
Following a dress code is not prohibiting her practicing her religion in this case. As I pointed out earlier, the school is not prohibiting her from having her nose pierced, it is prohibiting the wearing of jewelry in her nose, which I would I bet my life on is *not* specified that she must do. It's not the "Church of Body Jewelry". If it was, then she might have a case for demanding special treatment.

It probably depends on the sect of CoBMism. You know those holy texts can be interpreted in different ways. :-p
 
  • #96
More stupid than trying to pass piercings as religion is that there's a dress code enforced in the first place.
 
  • #97
People go to school so that at one moment they can join workforce. At workplace the unprofessional dress code is not appropriate. Seeing school and workplace as synonymous of each other, I believe that schools should have authority to enforce a dress code. In addition, one of the jobs of the schools is to prepare students for the workplaces.
 
  • #98
rootX said:
People go to school so that at one moment they can join workforce. At workplace the unprofessional dress code is not appropriate.

That's two generalizations in a row. None of the researchers or professors I know adhere to a strict dress code. Some professors dress nicer than others, but to correlate it with the professor's competence at school of science would be... out of place. These are really some of the least judgmental people I've ever met in my life... especially in Alaska, where everyone wears carrharts, always have knives on them, and women regularly own chainsaws and guns, while being part of a productive space physics research group (that must have sounded like a joke, but it wasn't).

Seeing school and workplace as synonymous of each other..
I was a teenager once, I worked at fast food joints. I adhered to the dress codes. It wasn't a big, dramatic, life changing event to all the sudden have to wear the same outfit for eight hours a day.

I worked on commercial fishing boats where no amount of school or "professional dress code" is going to make you a quality crew member.

I now do research and schooling at the same university (no dress code, obviously, my customers are more interested in whether the research itself is productive).

[sarcasm]
Maybe dress codes should be a class for a special class of people who
a) are going into a type of profession that requires a dress code in the first place
AND
b) are somehow incompetent or emotionally unstable and will fail in life because they can't dress appropriately.[/sarcasm]

And I'll stop ranting now, thanks
 
  • #99
Pythagorean said:
More stupid than trying to pass piercings as religion is that there's a dress code enforced in the first place.

If you spent some time being part of about 50 adults who are in charge of, and responsible for, 2000+ students (everything from gangstas to corporate exectutives' kids), I think you might reverse the order of which is more stupid.

High school especially is the place where "the slippery slope" is not a fallacy. A certain percentage of the kids push the limits of acceptability on a daily basis, to see how much they can get away with.

I've seen girls come in wearing sheer blouses or skirts with highly visible underwear underneath. Guys come in with shirts emblazoned with "YOU SUCK!" or worse, on the front (these guys make a point of moving to the front seat of a class for the occasion). Hats, headbands, shoestrings, rags are indeed used as gang symbols which are then used to deliberately incite the "other guys."

We had a no hat rule instilled a few years ago, and so the gangstas (and the wannabes) would carry them in their hands. I was teaching a "foundations" class two years ago, when there was a thump at the window by the door. A red hat was pressed to the glass whereupon one of my students jumped up and ran to the door yelling "M*****F******N*****" etc.

At the other end of the scale, there are the "precious darlings" I get in the honors classes who are working on their lingerie modeling career. I have to look at these people, and if looking toward one side of a class means I have to see a 5/7th exposed breast, that does affect how I teach. I would say something like " that's not appropriate for school." Her: "What's not appropriate?" (forcing me to say it, you see?) About once a year I get the line: "well why are you staring at me there?"

A dress code is absolutely necessary. A line must be drawn in the sand. No, not sand, the line is on the iciest and steepest of slippery slopes.
 
  • #100
Chi Meson said:
If you spent some time being part of about 50 adults who are in charge of, and responsible for, 2000+ students (everything from gangstas to corporate exectutives' kids), I think you might reverse the order of which is more stupid.

High school especially is the place where "the slippery slope" is not a fallacy. A certain percentage of the kids push the limits of acceptability on a daily basis, to see how much they can get away with.

I've seen girls come in wearing sheer blouses or skirts with highly visible underwear underneath. Guys come in with shirts emblazoned with "YOU SUCK!" or worse, on the front (these guys make a point of moving to the front seat of a class for the occasion). Hats, headbands, shoestrings, rags are indeed used as gang symbols which are then used to deliberately incite the "other guys."

We had a no hat rule instilled a few years ago, and so the gangstas (and the wannabes) would carry them in their hands. I was teaching a "foundations" class two years ago, when there was a thump at the window by the door. A red hat was pressed to the glass whereupon one of my students jumped up and ran to the door yelling "M*****F******N*****" etc.

At the other end of the scale, there are the "precious darlings" I get in the honors classes who are working on their lingerie modeling career. I have to look at these people, and if looking toward one side of a class means I have to see a 5/7th exposed breast, that does affect how I teach. I would say something like " that's not appropriate for school." Her: "What's not appropriate?" (forcing me to say it, you see?) About once a year I get the line: "well why are you staring at me there?"

A dress code is absolutely necessary. A line must be drawn in the sand. No, not sand, the line is on the iciest and steepest of slippery slopes.

I have only taught two semesters of college students.

I don't know how you define "kid" but these are 18 to mid-20's. They talk about booze and drugs, they curse, and there was one particular girl one of the semesters who dressed skimpy and batted her eyes at me and what not a lot. I simply ignored her behavior and saw past it.

Now, girls under 18 years old I could understand making one uncomfortable, if it's high school you're talking about, but I truly was focused on the nose ring and was imagining everyone wearing the same uniform when I ranted about dress codes (or strict codes that enforce m-colored slacks and a q-colored shirts). I wasn't looking at the opposite extreme: a minimal clothing requirement.

Gangsters aren't a real problem in Alaska, so I concede to that as well out of ignorance, but seriously, how does face jewelry come in?
 
  • #101
Pythagorean said:
Gangsters aren't a real problem in Alaska, so I concede to that as well out of ignorance, but seriously, how does face jewelry come in?

I am glad to know we are in general agreement. As far as "face jewelery" comes in, I would never have believed that this "tiff" is about the tiny nose stud (see my earlier link). If it was only this tiny stud, it should never be a problem.

But again we have a line on the slope: If you said "yes" to the tiny diamond stud, then the next day (and I mean literally, the next day) it would be the larger, obtrusive onyx stone or something. ("But yesterday you said it was OK"). And then it would be the hoop, then the larger hoop.

Multiple hoops through the nose and eyebrows are next (which make my eyes water when I see them).

At this point people say I'm playing a game of "If If If." In a large, mixed high school, there are no "Ifs" in these cases.

We had three years of a spineless principal. "Huggy Bear," we called him. By the end of his tenure (three years, because that gave him max retirement benefits, his goal), there were daily fights in our school. Students yelled and cursed loudly in the hallway during classes. Some kids were on their cell phones all day despite the ban.

We have a new principal and I am thrilled. In one year most of the problems evaporated. The trick? "Be fair" and "Hold the line." That was all.
 
  • #102
Chi Meson said:
I am glad to know we are in general agreement. As far as "face jewelery" comes in, I would never have believed that this "tiff" is about the tiny nose stud (see my earlier link). If it was only this tiny stud, it should never be a problem.

But again we have a line on the slope: If you said "yes" to the tiny diamond stud, then the next day (and I mean literally, the next day) it would be the larger, obtrusive onyx stone or something. ("But yesterday you said it was OK"). And then it would be the hoop, then the larger hoop.

Multiple hoops through the nose and eyebrows are next (which make my eyes water when I see them).

At this point people say I'm playing a game of "If If If." In a large, mixed high school, there are no "Ifs" in these cases.

We had three years of a spineless principal. "Huggy Bear," we called him. By the end of his tenure (three years, because that gave him max retirement benefits, his goal), there were daily fights in our school. Students yelled and cursed loudly in the hallway during classes. Some kids were on their cell phones all day despite the ban.

We have a new principal and I am thrilled. In one year most of the problems evaporated. The trick? "Be fair" and "Hold the line." That was all.

Ah, I read your post. I guess I've never seen the inside of a high school in my adult life, so I couldn't possibly appreciate the teacher's point of view. I'm not so responsible for behavior teaching college students, so it's easier not to care I suppose.

My daughter is 10 months now, can't wait until she's 13 [/sarcasm]
 
  • #103
Pythagorean said:
rootX said:
People go to school so that at one moment they can join workforce. At workplace the unprofessional dress code is not appropriate.

That's two generalizations in a row. None of the researchers or professors I know adhere to a strict dress code.

It's supposed to be a generalization. Same with why we are taught The Stone Angel and calculus, whether or not it's relevant to our eventual career.

Living within externally-imposed constraints (dress code is one example) is one lesson that can be learned via school.
 
  • #104
Chi Meson said:
High school especially is the place where "the slippery slope" is not a fallacy.

Great quote. Should be forced into the heads of all aspiring teachers/high school administers.
 
  • #105
lisab said:
Great quote. Should be forced into the heads of all aspiring teachers/high school administers.
Cough! Excuse me! :wink:
 
  • #106
Earring, okay. Nose ring, suspension.

I don't get it.
 
  • #107
Newai said:
Earring, okay. Nose ring, suspension.

I don't get it.

I, personally, don't get that one either. But we're talking about North Carolina, not exactly a "progressive" state. Earrings can also be obnoxious and disruptive and even offensive. A diamond stud nose-ring is no less elegant than the similar ear-ring.

Our school has a size limit, I can't recall what it is, but it includes "no hoops." There is a safety issue there: certain types have been known to yank them out in hallways. That would be nasty if it were a nose ring hoop.
 
  • #108
zomgwtf said:
I think that's only because it is banned so when someone wears it it draws attention. If it wasn't banned I think no one would take notice. The only real reason such things are banned is because they are found to be offensive...
Pretty much by definition, something cannot be offensive unless people take notice. :-p


I assume the whole point behind things like dress codes, public decency laws, and so forth has to do with protecting people's rights. If I find George Carlin offensive, I have the right not to listen to him! But that right has been violated if the law requires me to go to a school that requires students to watch his routines. The standards in places like a school or a public library must be stricter.

(Or I would have assumed -- nanny-type rules didn't cross my mind until Chi mentioned it)
 
  • #109
Thread closed. This topic has been beaten to death.