That Will Smith and Chris Rock thing

[pinball1970]

<Moderator's note: Thread split off. You guys take your fight outside (the jokes thread) >

View attachment 299089

A body language analysis gives an interesting breakdown of this.
Not a moral judgement, just whether it was staged or not in his opinion.

 

[bob012345]

A body language analysis gives an interesting breakdown of this.
Not a moral judgement, just whether it was staged or not in his opinion.

If it was staged Will Smith deserves another Oscar for his portrayal of an angry Husband. He sure had me convinced.

Either way, it can't be said this went off without a Hitch...

and...

This must be the return of slapstick comedy...

 

[berkeman]

If it was staged Will Smith deserves another Oscar for his portrayal of an angry Husband. He sure had me convinced.

They are professional actors; this is what they do. And for good reasons apparently...

https://www.insider.com/sales-for-chris-rocks-show-skyrocket-after-oscars-slap-2022-3

Personally, I think they should both be issued camo gear and put on the next flight to the Ukraine so they can experience real life. Stupid manipulating Hollywood and its actors... Grrr

 

[BillTre]

"Greatest night of TV ever" (or something like that).

 

[ergospherical]

You really think the fresh prince would voluntarily flush his entire reputation down the toilet, just to generate a few days worth of social media hype?

 

[berkeman]

You really think the fresh prince would voluntarily flush his entire reputation down the toilet, just to generate a few days worth of social media hype?

It sounds like you are attributing way too much intelligence to these two actors and their agents, IMO... Think Jussie Smollett...

 

[phinds]

You really think the fresh prince would voluntarily flush his entire reputation down the toilet, just to generate a few days worth of social media hype?

What on Earth are you talking about? There are likely many who are impressed by how strongly he "defended his wife's honor" kind of thing and slapping another celebrity hardly is going to ruin his reputation.

 

[berkeman]

What on Earth are you talking about? There are likely many who are impressed by how strongly he "defended his wife's honor" kind of thing and slapping another celebrity hardly is going to ruin his reputation.

I guess you didn't read my Jussie Smollett reference? Should I post a link?

 

[phinds]

I guess you didn't read my Jussie Smollett reference? Should I post a link?

I don't think one has anything to do with the other, but if you think the whole Rock/Smith thing was a setup, then they do.

 

[berkeman]

Sorry, who is "they"? The Oscars people? The actors' agents? The public?

 

[ergospherical]

They’re not even remotely comparable. Smith is already one of the most famous men on the planet, and hardly short of cash; he has nothing to gain and everything to lose. The reaction was near-universally critical of him and if it truly were staged, the truth would have come out by now.

I dislike Hollywood as much as the next man, but c’mon.

 

[berkeman]

If he was sincere, why didn't he use a closed fist lights-out? A slap? That's for publicity, even if it wasn't staged. And how is Chris Rock so impaired that he doesn't know how to dodge/duck? I'm pretty sure I can at least partially duck a sucker punch...

 

[ergospherical]

Hindsight is a lovely thing. When you’re pumped up on adrenaline, you tend not to think so deeply.

 

[Baluncore]

Anyone speaking on stage is in a responsible position of trust. When they work that hard to provoke a response from a member of the audience, it is called bullying. The slap was a measured response, maybe not the response expected, but it was well deserved. What other response would have been appropriate. A closed fist would have been classed as assault.

 

[berkeman]

A closed fist would have been classed as assault.

So is a slap. Pretty convenient that the "victim" chose not to file charges. I still call BS.

 

[ergospherical]

Anyone speaking on stage is in a responsible position of trust. When they work that hard to provoke a response from a member of the audience, it is called bullying. The slap was a measured response, maybe not the response expected, but it was well deserved. What other response would have been appropriate. A closed fist would have been classed as assault.

Gosh! Whatever happened to “sticks and stones may break my bones, but words…”?

It’s a pretty fundamental tenet of a free society that anyone - especially comedians - should be able to say whatever they like without fear of physical violence.

Pretty convenient that the "victim" chose not to file charges.

De-escalation?

 

[phinds]

Gosh! Whatever happened to “sticks and stones may break my bones, but words…”?

Maybe celebrities like Smith, probably surrounded to fawning people all the time, get a bit thin-skinned towards any criticism, even from a comedian.

Or, maybe Mike's right and the whole thing was a setup. I tend to think not.

 

[Baluncore]

Gosh! Whatever happened to “sticks and stones may break my bones, but words…”?

"... will never hurt me, but when I'm dead and in my grave, you'll remember what you called me".
Is the suicide rate not high enough ?

I guess, bullying of an individual audience member must be acceptable then, if you are a stand up comedian in the USA.

 

[bob012345]

So is a slap. Pretty convenient that the "victim" chose not to file charges. I still call BS.

I'm surprised. I should think believing this was staged would be classified as a conspiracy theory here at PF.

 

[berkeman]

I'm surprised. I should think believing this was staged would be classified as a conspiracy theory here at PF.

Well, that's a valid concern. Unfortunately we are discussing actors who make their living through acting. Are you familiar with the Jussie Smollett reference? That is a convicted criminal offense and not a conspiracy theory...

 

[bob012345]

Well, that's a valid concern. Unfortunately we are discussing actors who make their living through acting. Are you familiar with the Jussie Smollett reference? That is a convicted criminal offense and not a conspiracy theory...

Yes, but since this is a jokes forum I was speaking in jest, not a serious criticism at all.

But in all seriousness, these are a few reasons I don't think it was staged, First, the 20 second delay gave ABC ample time to edit the audio which they did and would not have if this were planned and second, Will Smith and Chris Rock would be unlikely to do this esp. with Smith's f-bombs in front of a national audience with many teens and children possibly watching. Also, the rage on Smith's face was scary not funny. I was disturbed by it.

 

[phinds]

I guess, bullying of an individual audience member must be acceptable then, if you are a stand up comedian in the USA.

"Bullying" is in the eye of the beholder. It is VERY common for comedians to make fun of particular audience members. This is either done in a good natured way and gets a laugh from everyone including the target, or it is done to a heckler.

SOMETIMES a comedian misjudges the audience or the joke and things go awry. There's a famous story about how Mark Twain made fun, in their presence, of most of the literary bigwigs of his time, and it did NOT go over well.

Still, none of them got up and slapped him.

 

[StevieTNZ]

All I can think of is Joan Rivers. And the wonderful Joy Behar.

 

[pinball1970]

So is a slap. Pretty convenient that the "victim" chose not to file charges. I still call BS.

I thought the whole thing was bizarre to say the least. The body language analysis I posted claims the incident was not staged.
The analysis looks at Smith, his wife and Rock then Smith's speech.
I probably know as much as the next man about body language (not a huge amount) and this break down gives examples of research on various points.
If you think it was fake I would like your view on the video. It's quite long but you will probably have a view half way through.

 

[pinball1970]

Well, that's a valid concern. Unfortunately we are discussing actors who make their living through acting. Are you familiar with the Jussie Smollett reference? That is a convicted criminal offense and not a conspiracy theory...

I had never heard of this guy till you referenced him.
Pretty crazy faking all that, why? Attention seeking? Victim complex? Or screwed up about coming out?
I get your point, actors do what they do best , act so this could have been an elaborate plan.
I look at actors the same way I look at footballers, I love the game but I am not that interested in the off the field activity.

This was quite a thing though, it must be it as it made it on to pf!
What I am interested in the body language break down, I hope you look at the vid I posted.
It looks methodical and scientific but that depends if you think body language is reliable, is scientific or is not reliable or worse, pseudoscience.

 

[hutchphd]

I guess, bullying of an individual audience member must be acceptable then, if you are a stand up comedian in the USA.

I am reminded of an event from 2011

 

[russ_watters]

Anyone speaking on stage is in a responsible position of trust. When they work that hard to provoke a response from a member of the audience, it is called bullying.

Nonsense. That's not true of normal stand-up comedy, much less in this situation.

For normal stand-up comedy, the audience is paying the comedian and seats near the front cost more. The possibility of being roasted by the host is part of the allure. People go home from a comedy show and brag about it to their friends. What you're suggesting is like going to Sea World, sitting in the front row and then complaining that you got splashed (for Sea World, there are signs).

In this case, both Rock and Smith are being paid for the awards show, whether directly or indirectly. For Rock it's an advertisement for his comedy. For Smith (and the academy), the roasting is part of the gig (they've been using this formula for decades), designed to both generate views from the audience and make the celebrities seem more approachable in what is otherwise a night when mega-millionaires are patting each other on the back. While also promoting his movie/career.

The slap was a measured response, maybe not the response expected, but it was well deserved. What other response would have been appropriate. A closed fist would have been classed as assault.

I agree that there was some measurement in the response, and it's clear from the fact that he got away with it in the moment that he knew where the line was to avoid immediate consequences.

 

[pinball1970]

I am reminded of an event from 2011

That was hilarious, never seen that!

 

[russ_watters]

It sounds like you are attributing way too much intelligence to these two actors and their agents, IMO... Think Jussie Smollett...

Agents and publicists. I think both Smith and Smollett were acting on their own, as evidenced by the fact that Smith's publicist came up to talk to him after the slap. If it were pre-planned by his team there'd be no need for that.

I've heard the opposite half spin from what you said; that because publicists and agents are so smart this had to be pre-planned.

And I don't think it was pre-planned by Smith or his team because of the massive downside for him. I think it's exactly what it appeared to be: a crazy artist going crazy in the moment.

And how is Chris Rock so impaired that he doesn't know how to dodge/duck?

The idea of being b-slapped on stage probably never crossed his mind.

 

[russ_watters]

You really think the fresh prince would voluntarily flush his entire reputation down the toilet, just to generate a few days worth of social media hype?

Just to echo that: Smith's entire persona/allure, is being a happy-go-lucky, likable guy. He's flushed that down the toilet.

 

[russ_watters]

What on Earth are you talking about? There are likely many who are impressed by how strongly he "defended his wife's honor" kind of thing and slapping another celebrity hardly is going to ruin his reputation.

There are many, but the proportion seems wildly in the opposite direction to me, reading media coverage/listening to people talk about it on the radio. The positive reaction itself reflects toxic masculinity and violent black culture problems:
https://kareem.substack.com/p/will-smith-did-a-bad-bad-thing?s=r

 

[phinds]

There are many, but the proportion seems wildly in the opposite direction to me, reading media coverage/listening to people talk about it on the radio.

Yeah, I think I underestimated the backlash in this case, BUT ... I doubt it will affect his bankability as a major star.

 

[pinball1970]

If it was staged Will Smith deserves another Oscar for his portrayal of an angry Husband. He sure had me convinced.

Either way, it can't be said this went off without a Hitch...

and...

This must be the return of slapstick comedy...

This is just a hypothesis, Ricky Gervais at the globes set a new bar.

Very edgy, sarcastic, uncomfortable AND funny, roasting the entire industry. But they keep asking him back (5 times)

Perhaps Rock was pushing the envelope for the Oscars as his stand up (which I like) is also very edgy.

It backfired. Unless it was staged to increase interest, I think that’s unlikely, just too bizarre and unpredictable in terms of outcome.

 

[Isopod]

I don't think that either man was in the right.

Chris Rocks joke was offensive and not funny.
Will Smiths reaction was violent & OTT.

They should both be apologising to each other.

I hate celebrity culture.

 

[pinball1970]

I don't think that either man was in the right.

Chris Rocks joke was offensive and not funny.
Will Smiths reaction was violent & OTT.

They should both be apologising to each other.

I hate celebrity culture.

They have completely different lives to us. Egos, status and wealth.
Ordinary intelligent people do not behave like that.
Giving Chris Rock the benefit of the doubt he may not have known she had a medical condition.
On the other hand women do not lose their hair like that at that age statistically at least and intelligent people tend to recognise that. She could have been in the middle of treatment for cancer. He should have done his research.
If that was my wife? I would have been dignified, nodded in his direction with a straight face and stayed put. Then had a chat with him back stage.

 

[russ_watters]

Giving Chris Rock the benefit of the doubt he may not have known she had a medical condition.

There have been reports that he did not know, not confirmed by him.

On the other hand women do not lose their hair like that at that age statistically at least and intelligent people tend to recognise that.

Her head is clearly shaved (the alopecia damage is on top/back, so, hard to see), which makes it look like a fashion choice, which is not uncommon amongst black women.

She could have been in the middle of treatment for cancer. He should have done his research.

If he in fact did not know, it's a little surprising since she had talked publicly about it. However, the joke was apparently not scripted. Maybe the dark green dress played into it?

If that was my wife? I would have been dignified, nodded in his direction with a straight face and stayed put. Then had a chat with him back stage.

A responsible/adult response. Also a public announcement/tweet would be appropriate.

 

[DaveC426913]

The possibility of being roasted by the host is part of the allure.

What you're suggesting is like going to Sea World, sitting in the front row and then complaining that you got splashed.

This.

One does not go to the Oscars if one can't cope with being roasted.

Regardless of motive though, smacking someone is Neanderthalesque.

(Not to mention that he's made himself fodder for every comedian from now until the Oscars years hence)

 

[DaveC426913]

I doubt it will affect his bankability as a major star

Ehhhhh...
Ask Mel Gibson if just a single toxic blowout can affect one's bankability.

 

[pinball1970]

Ehhhhh...
Ask Mel Gibson if just a single toxic blowout can affect one's bankability.

What has come out of this for me is body language? How robust is this? How sound is the science and is it Science? @jim mcnamara and @BillTre

 

[phinds]

Ehhhhh...
Ask Mel Gibson if just a single toxic blowout can affect one's bankability.

Huh? I'm aware he got a lot of bad press for a while (and as I recall, very deservedly so) but you see any gaps in his employment history up to and including this year?

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000154/

 

[jim mcnamara]

@pinball1970 -
Here are two papers showing how medical people use non-verbal communication skills
doi: 10.1186/s12909-018-1260-9
"Verbal and non-verbal communication skills including empathy during history taking of undergraduate medical students"

doi: 10.1186/s12912-020-00443-9
"Evidence of nonverbal communication between nurses and older adults: a scoping review"

Yes, it is pretty well understood. It also has cultural aspects as well.
Example anecdotes:
I lived for 30 years on Kewa and Dine - two reservations in New Mexico, Arizona.
One glaring aspect (that's a joke BTW) was that a traditional person thinks you are giving them the evil eye if you look at that person while you are talking. Eye contact is big negative. This is mostly reversed for Western culture. Our daughter drove my wife around the bend by adopting non-verbal mannerisms she learned from her friends - on purpose of course. Evil kid.

There was an exchange program for teachers in the Ganado AZ (Apache county AZ) from Millersville State in Pennsylvania. They gave a workshop on non-verbal communication and a few other things to defuse culture shock on arriving in Ganado. Navajo students going the other way were used to Anglo body language because of TV repeater networks.

 

[BillTre]

What has come out of this for me is body language? How robust is this? How sound is the science and is it Science? @jim mcnamara and @BillTre

I did not know much about this before, but I was impressed by the guy in the video.
To me it is reminiscent of a detailed behavioral analysis of some animal behavior.
It also reminds me of doing facial analysis to determine the emotions someone is feeling.
It would have been nice to see more detailed autonomic functional outputs like pupil size, breathing rate, body temperature, etc. You could go on and on, and its not in a lab setting.

Even then, I think a good actor (really feeling their part at the time) could be deceptive of their intent, but some of the details of the observations make that seem less likely to me.
More like bad ideas and bad reactions.

 

[ergospherical]

 

[DaveC426913]

Huh? I'm aware he got a lot of bad press for a while (and as I recall, very deservedly so) but you see any gaps in his employment history up to and including this year?

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000154/

If I read my wiki right, he was blacklisted by Hollywood for ten years. But it wasn't one incident, it was several, and they ranged across ethnicities.

 

[phinds]

If I read my wiki right, he was blacklisted by Hollywood for ten years. But it wasn't one incident, it was several, and they ranged across ethnicities.

What 10 years was that? Did you look at the link I provided? He has worked every year for several decades.

 

[DaveC426913]

What 10 years was that? Did you look at the link I provided? He has worked every year for several decades.

I can see by the URL you just linked to IMDb.

Your yardstick is faulty. Being blacklisted doesn't mean he did not work at all.

But ill bet his pocketbook got lonely. A more accurate metric might be how much he got paid during those ten years. Presumably he had to go with whomever would take him.

 

[russ_watters]

Huh? I'm aware he got a lot of bad press for a while (and as I recall, very deservedly so) but you see any gaps in his employment history up to and including this year?

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000154/

Well there's a 5 year gap in movie acting starting in 2005 and a 9 year gap from directing starting in 2007 and the movies he did act in were mostly small roles or movies. I mean, he wasn't in danger of starving, but I bet he lost 90% of his career from 2006-2016 and its still not what it was before then. His wiki page describes it as a blacklisting:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson

[The filmography chart/matrix on wiki is easier to read than imdb]

 

[phinds]

Well there's a 5 year gap in movie acting starting in 2005 and a 9 year gap from directing starting in 2007 and the movies he did act in were mostly small roles or movies. I mean, he wasn't in danger of starving, but I bet he's lost 90% of his career from 2006-2016 and its still not what it was before then. His wiki page describes it as a blacklisting:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson

OOPS. I missed that. My bad (and I was only looking at the acting; I forgot he is also a director). @DaveC426913 you were right.

 

[ElDoRado1239]

I just wanted to thank you for the wonderful body language breakdown, quite fascinating.

I always love a random "deep dip" into a science I know little about. Although I think we all know quite a lot about body language by default, it's mostly just a lack of skill to properly articulate what we perceive.
Especially mere description of body language is very hard for me to decode. If somebody asked me what "tightly clasped hands with interlocked fingers" meant I'd probably say something like "is that a thing you do when you try to maintain a dignified posture while sitting in a high-class restaurant?"
Yet when I saw her do it the meaning was pretty obvious to me. Or at least I felt it means what the body language expert said it means.

Anyways - to add my two bits, I think this definitely wasn't staged. Some think that being a seasoned actor automatically makes you able to pretend anything in real-time. But an actor has a role they project, script they adhere to, director and a whole team of people steering the action even though they might not intervene directly. It was a "scene" some, what, ten minutes long? If actors could shoot scenes 10 minutes per take, it wouldn't take months to record. Will's wife looks obviously offended the second she realizes what he said. And I am confident Will didn't hear or get the joke, his laugh seems to be one of those "hahaha I've no idea what he meant". Then he saw his wife and that probably triggered him connecting the dots.

Finally - do people know why the joke was so offensive? That she has a medical condition (alopecia) and her shaved head is by no means a choice? Kind of on its way to saying "hey there baldie" to a female cancer patient. Female baldness can be especially devastating and from the other reactions and the speech, it seems she has been a target of abuse for some time now. And he told that "joke" with a proud, arrogant stance which didn't help to tone down the emotional reaction either.

Addendum : I don't see that slap as a full-on act of agression─that would be the fist someone mentioned─but rather a "shame on you!" followed by a few assorted profanities. That's what makes me think of it as rather acceptable, unlike a punch or any sort of prolonged fighting.

 

[DaveC426913]

do people know why the joke was so offensive

I don't see that slap as a full-on act of agression─that would be the fist someone mentioned─but rather a "shame on you!"

Let me see if I've got this. In one breath you are:

- condemning Rock ("so offensive") for roasting someone - a time honoured tradition at the Oscars and what he was hired by the show to do

while

- defending Smith's assault (a crime) as nothing more than a harmless rebuke.

Do I have that right?