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Smith's wife is a celebrity in her own right and fair game to mock
Jim Carrey nailed it here
Jim Carrey nailed it here
Interesting talk on body dynamics. 'Too much stew from one oyster' perhaps, but an instructive analysis.pinball1970 said:I thought the whole thing was bizarre to say the least. The body language analysis I posted claims the incident was not staged.
The analysis looks at Smith, his wife and Rock then Smith's speech.
I probably know as much as the next man about body language (not a huge amount) and this break down gives examples of research on various points.
If you think it was fake I would like your view on the video. It's quite long but you will probably have a view half way through.
So, I've been taking that for granted, but I just saw an analysis of an appearance she made to talk about it several years ago by a doctor today (the video was made a couple of months ago) that suggested her main issue is probably just a plastic surgery scar. She may also have one of several forms of hair loss that half of all women get as they age, but it's not clear she even has them (and almost nobody refers to that as alopecia). There's nothing to indicate hair loss so bad she needed to shave her head.ElDoRado1239 said:Finally - do people know why the joke was so offensive? That she has a medical condition (alopecia) and her shaved head is by no means a choice? Kind of on its way to saying "hey there baldie" to a female cancer patient.
And what leads you to that conclusion? Do you know her personally?Mondayman said:Jada said in an interview that all she can do is laugh about her conditon. Clearly, that was a bald-faced lie.
It was a joke. I'd rather not know her personally.phinds said:And what leads you to that conclusion? Do you know her personally?
Ah. You meant a bald-headed lie.Mondayman said:It was a joke.
I certainly did.phinds said:Ah. You meant a bald-headed lie.
Count me in.Isopod said:I hate celebrity culture.
I talked about with my team at work, @berkeman, because I thought the same thing. Men tend to punch, not slap, but apparently, in some cultures a slap is more insulting, along the lines of, "You don't even merit a punch."berkeman said:If he was sincere, why didn't he use a closed fist lights-out? A slap? That's for publicity, even if it wasn't staged.
Hmmm. It seemed Will Smith was laughing at the joke, saw his wife wasn't, and then he got up and physically assaulted Chris Rock. I'm glad that's not considered a 'measured response' to such slights Down Under, @Baluncore, and I can't fathom how it was 'well deserved'. Violence is momentarily satisfying, but it rarely solves root causes and as Smith is finding, often has deleterious unintended consequences.Baluncore said:The slap was a measured response, maybe not the response expected, but it was well deserved.
Or was Will Smith laughing at Chris Rock trying so hard, but failing to fabricate something to say that might be funny. I still don't see any joke. The fact that a one legged actor might play the part of a pirate is not funny for the one legged actor. Calling it a joke is simply an excuse to laugh at someones disability or medical problem.Melbourne Guy said:Hmmm. It seemed Will Smith was laughing at the joke, ...
Jada was also laughing at first. I think in this environment even the audience is putting on an act as they know they are just as much part of the production as the person on stage, with the cameras in their faces and the media attention to their reactions. So laughing at the jokes and showing their cool is a sort of practiced rote response.Melbourne Guy said:Hmmm. It seemed Will Smith was laughing at the joke, saw his wife wasn't, and then he got up and physically assaulted Chris Rock. I'm glad that's not considered a 'measured response' to such slights Down Under, @Baluncore, and I can't fathom how it was 'well deserved'. Violence is momentarily satisfying, but it rarely solves root causes and as Smith is finding, often has deleterious unintended consequences.
That's not really the point though.Baluncore said:...failing to fabricate something to say that might be funny. I still don't see any joke.
No. It's roasting. It's the Oscars. It's expected. It's what the MC is paid to do. The Smiths know that. Still they went.Baluncore said:The fact that a one legged actor might play the part of a pirate is not funny for the one legged actor. Calling it a joke is simply an excuse to laugh at someones disability or medical problem.
@Baluncore, you seem to regard Smith's action as permissible, and that aspect I cannot fathom. Chris Rock is a comedian. Maybe a poor one who made a comment that was not funny, but how does that justify physical abuse? Nothing to do with a 'litigious environment' or 'PC' or even 'trolls' (not sure where that came from!), in these specific circumstances it was legally noted as battery by the police.Baluncore said:Or was Will Smith laughing at Chris Rock trying so hard, but failing to fabricate something to say that might be funny. I still don't see any joke. The fact that a one legged actor might play the part of a pirate is not funny for the one legged actor. Calling it a joke is simply an excuse to laugh at someones disability or medical problem.
The definition of assault varies with time and place. I can see how, in a litigious environment, any contact might be considered assault. It is certainly PC to argue that line at the moment. Trolls are scavengers and so will turn everything inside out in their search for something to be enraged about. Meanwhile to survive in the real world one needs to carry a big stick, and refrain from using it. For some, the big stick is a lawyer, for others it is a gun. To see what the real world is like, just watch TV from the USA.
The degree of injury.Melbourne Guy said:If not, what policy determines the difference?
There is no time and place where a long-armed slap/punch - delivered deliberately and with wrath, to someone neither expecting nor or welcoming it - is not considered textbook assault and battery.Baluncore said:The definition of assault varies with time and place. I can see how, in a litigious environment, any contact might be considered assault. It is certainly PC to argue that line at the moment.
Without being glib: the Oscars are not the real world.Baluncore said:...to survive in the real world one needs to carry a big stick, and refrain from using it...
We'll never be of like mind on this, @Baluncore, so I'll bow out, but I do appreciate your frank discussion. And I pray that you're never on the receiving end of the 'real world' you posit, because random acts of violence always leave their imprint, irrespective that you might feel the injury is slight.Baluncore said:The degree of injury.
I haven't seen much discussion of that aspect, @DaveC426913, but it crossed my mind that Jada Pinkett Smith is certainly able to stand up for herself. She hardly seems passive in any aspect of her life! And she has recently publicly talked about having alopecia and her loving her “bald head” so Will's motivation is even murkier than I had assumed.DaveC426913 said:For cryin' out loud, Smith had to cross a half a football field in front of a million viewers to "defend her"*.
*how this helped anything I have no idea.
DennisN said:Count me in.
By the way, regarding celebrity and fame in general, here's a celebrity with a HUGE amount of integrity and distance. The talented UK musician Robert Smith (frontman of The Cure). He is one of my heroes both because of his music AND of his genuine personality.
Listen to what he says in the interview about fame and other things here (@3m54s) and here (@14m31s) and here (@15m27s). The whole video is fun to watch too, he is very witty.
Isopod said:Good interview. I liked The Cure's single "Boys Don't Cry", the lead singer seems pretty down to Earth. I'm more into genres like metal & kpop, but the interview kind of reminds me of these ones where some legendary rock/metal stars spoke with incredibly frank openness about their lives:
"Unexpectedly Honest Answers to Interview Questions"
"Musicians tell the truth about American Idol"
Unlike a lot of other types of celebrities, I feel that rock stars tend to tell it like it is.
I can't stand celebrity culture but I also feel like it taps into a very primordial part of our brains which even the best of us can find difficult to resist sometimes (I have no real interest in the Kardashians or Katie Price but despite this, in the past 2 weeks I still found their names entering into my conversations). I wonder what it is that makes it so difficult to avoid giving these people attention sometimes.
Jarvis323 said:I have to disagree about American Idol. Sure I see the parts I don't like, such as how it is heavily produced, pop music focused, and the way they try to mold the performers into a sort of cookie cutter model of pop music success.
At the same time, those are real people coming on the show with real dreams and real talent, and this gives them a platform to present their work to the world, at a time when it's incredibly difficult to get such an opportunity or get noticed otherwise. And many of them are very good; better than Dave Grohl, who let's face it is a pretty mediocre (pretty much pop) musician who got a lucky break. Without shows like American Idol in today's day and age, the music industry is just more exclusive than it would be otherwise. Would Bob Dylan win a singing contest? Sure in the 1960's he might have. Would he now? Probably not. Had he been on the show would people have heard him play, yes.
Isopod said:I don't believe that the purpose of American Idol is to provide opportunities or a platform to people, but instead to provide entertainment to the mass and help keep the careers of people like Simon Cowell relevant (who would be non-entities to the public outside of their industries were it not for shows like this). The show is incredibly artificial (so many things have already been decided for people before they even get up on stage) and its just as famous for its controversies as it is making anyone successful.
Maybe to an extent, but with this comes hundreds of millions of musicians competing for attention using memes, clickbait, and sexy imagery to try to get noticed. Some people go viral, not everyone can. And those platforms can be pretty toxic as well.Isopod said:I would have to disagree that the music industry is more exclusive than it used to be (or that American Idol makes any palpable difference to opportunities in the industry); if anything, the rise of platforms like TikTok and YouTube have lead to real fame and careers for many people (for example Doja Cat) who might not otherwise have had such opportunities if they were made to go through the traditional routes only. The routes to fame in the past were incredibly limited but now there are endless new platforms which reach out to far larger (& much more international) audiences.
pinball1970 said:I feel a bit guilty for starting this. I accidentally posted a vid on the jokes page so a mod moved it here. No idea you guys were so interested in celebrity culture! (Joke)
Anyway one thing that has interested me is the analysis via body language and for those guys/biology guys like Jim and Bill who are interested here is a follow up to the original video.
I like the fact this guy is open to criticism and some of his conclusions could be taken other ways.
They use some of these techniques in interrogation of suspects so I really do like the analytical side to this.
Drakkith said:I'm almost amazed at how quick people are to judge someone they don't know in a situation they weren't part of. Almost as if everyone conveniently forgot all the times they've done things they later wish they hadn't. I suppose that's human nature, though. Lord knows I'm not immune to it.
DaveC426913 said:Assault and battery (from 47 camera angles, with ten million witnesses) is not that complicated to judge. Not "knowing" him doesn't factor in.
In many places I've lived, slapping the crap out of someone who made a joke at the expense of your wife would almost be expected, not merely tolerated. I don't know what kind of environment Will Smith grew up in, but it wouldn't surprise me if similar things were expected of men.DaveC426913 said:I've been on the planet 5 years longer than Will Smith. I've made mistakes in my mortgage and my parenting technique - but I've never committed premeditated* assault and battery on someone who made a tasteless joke.
Not too long if we are to believe his apology later on. I've done stupid things that required a much, much longer time to play out and I'd bet you've been in a similar boat before.DaveC426913 said:* he had to cross a half a football field, in front of ten million people! Just how long does it take for his brain to rein in his impulses?
But this is not a court case; there's no lawyers, no burden of proof to make; no evidence to pore over.Drakkith said:Of course it's complicated to judge. People have been found not guilty of similar crimes in similar circumstances. We've all heard or read about court cases that turned out completely different than expected. The two could go to court right now and no one here would be able to confidently predict the outcome. If it wasn't complicated to judge this thread would be very different.
Whether it even goes to court - or if he is even charged - is irrelevant whether we can condemn him for the violence we witnessed.Drakkith said:I also find your use of legal terms a bit premature considering he hasn't been convicted of anything yet.
Yes. So what? That doesn't mean it's acceptable in modern public society. We get to judge it as brutish and violent and unwarranted.Drakkith said:In many places I've lived, slapping the crap out of someone who made a joke at the expense of your wife would almost be expected, not merely tolerated.
Will Smith has no business playing the "rough childhood" card. "I'm worth 350 million dollars but I never outgrew my poor childhood." He has proven that he is not defined by his childhood, and he certainly knows better than to do what was once "expected of men".Drakkith said:I don't know what kind of environment Will Smith grew up in, but it wouldn't surprise me if similar things were expected of men.
That does not make it OK what Smith did. How does that even follow?Note: I am not suggesting he be charged, prosecuted or sent to jail. I am saying we can absolutely judge what he did to Chris Rock as a totally unacceptable action - doubly-so given the civil context in which it occurred (it's not like the Smiths were caught alone in a dark alley with Rock brandishing a knife, or some other "self-defense extenuating circumstances").I don't quite get your stance. You're saying we shouldn't be so quick to judge, but are you suggesting there are circumstances to this specific incident that somehow makes such violence acceptable in this day and age?Drakkith said:Not too long if we are to believe his apology later on. I've done stupid things that required a much, much longer time to play out and I'd bet you've been in a similar boat before.
Split off? Where is the other part?pinball1970 said:Moderator's note: Thread split off. You guys take your fight outside (the jokes thread)
Agree.artis said:...I wouldn't have thought this is worth so much discussion.
Dave there is some interesting biology. Psychology, physiology.DaveC426913 said:Agree.
And yet ... here we all are (including you) offering our 22 cents.
We each of us like to think we are above it all, but we aren't really, are we?
I posted a joke in the wrong place. I am very sorry about that !symbolipoint said:Split off? Where is the other part?
Yes, there was a whole sidebar about that earlier.pinball1970 said:Dave there is some interesting biology. Psychology, physiology.
I'll admit I sometimes take a sneak peek into the very movies I hate just to remind myself why I hate them.DaveC426913 said:We each of us like to think we are above it all, but we aren't really, are we?
A side bar from the tangent? We need a new word for thatDaveC426913 said:Yes, there was a whole sidebar about that earlier.
It may be fascinating as an academic exercise, and perhaps may shed light on the ... bona fidelity** of the incident, I'm not sure what it informs about the discussion.
** I just made that up
The fight against the vestiges of toxic masculinity (and its cousin, rape culture) will last a long time yet. "I was raised to be a 'real' man. It's not my fault." is a part of toxic masculinity.pinball1970 said:I just don't feel the need to contribute.
DaveC426913 said:The fight against the vestiges of toxic masculinity (and its cousin, rape culture) will last a long time yet. "I was raised to be a 'real' man. It's not my fault." is a part of toxic masculinity.
That's when I'll stop.
I disagree, but I'll drop this part of the discussion if you will. Arguing over terminology is... frustrating. Even when you're right.DaveC426913 said:What legal terms? Assault and battery? That's not a "legal term". He hit him. We saw it. That's battery. Full stop.
I never said anything about his upbringing being 'rough'. Mine certainly wasn't and yet most of my family would expect me to defend my wife in some fashion if she were insulted. Especially by another man.DaveC426913 said:Will Smith has no business playing the "rough childhood" card. "I'm worth 350 million dollars but I never outgrew my poor childhood." He has proven that he is not defined by his childhood, and he certainly knows better than to do what was once "expected of men".
Some amount of violence is absolutely acceptable, even today. Why would you think it isn't? Many of our heroes, in history and in fiction, use violence. Many video games have violence. We let our children pretend to beat the crap out of people when they pretend to be ninjas, cowboys, wrestlers, or whatever.DaveC426913 said:I don't quite get your stance. You're saying we shouldn't be so quick to judge, but are you suggesting there are circumstances to this specific incident that somehow makes such violence acceptable in this day and age?
Drakkith said:I never said anything about his upbringing being 'rough'.
If one grew up such that it is expected for words to be met with violence, that's someone who has not been prepared for polite society yet. Violence is a behavior that has gone uncorrected (for over five decades) so as not to be a menace in public. After all, they throw people in jail for such things!... slapping the crap out of someone who made a joke at the expense of your wife would almost be expected, not merely tolerated. I don't know what kind of environment Will Smith grew up in, but it wouldn't surprise me if similar things were expected of men.
With a fist?? (I hope you correct your family's destructive "expectations" of you!)Drakkith said:Mine certainly wasn't and yet most of my family would expect me to defend my wife in some fashion if she were insulted. Especially by another man.
This is a red herring. We are not talking about generic or contextual violence. We are taking about this incident, and what ten million people witnessed happening. I have nothing to say about what happens in some hypothetical military incident. None of us do.Drakkith said:Some amount of violence is absolutely acceptable, even today. Why would you think it isn't? Many of our heroes, in history and in fiction, use violence.
Then you're not really volunteering your honest view.Drakkith said:But that's mostly my Air Force answer.
I understand 'Air Force answer' and that majority mindset and do not judge. I gave honest ethical answers as best I could. Honesty caused trouble and some hardship but kept me centered. Definitely a miniscule minority follow this path.Drakkith said:As an analogy, let me use some of my military experiences. In the Air Force, when taking a formal test or answering questions asked by an inspector, you give the 'Air Force answer'. That is, the one that's taught by all the books and trainers and such. But that doesn't necessarily match what you actually would do in the real world.