The art to become special and a bounce

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter hurk4
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Art Bounce
Click For Summary
SUMMARY

The discussion centers on Roger Penrose's concepts from "The Road to Reality," particularly the trajectory from a low entropy state at the Big Bang to a higher entropy state today. Participants debate the implications of the second law of thermodynamics on the universe's fate and the possibility of a bounce occurring in black holes, referencing Loop Quantum Cosmology (LQC) and the work of Ashtekar and Bojowald. The conversation highlights the need for an observer in determining macrostates and questions whether a bounce could lead to a decrease in entropy, potentially challenging established thermodynamic principles.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of Roger Penrose's theories, particularly in "The Road to Reality"
  • Familiarity with the second law of thermodynamics
  • Knowledge of Loop Quantum Cosmology (LQC) and its implications
  • Basic concepts of black holes and their properties, including the Schwarzschild shield
NEXT STEPS
  • Research Roger Penrose's theories on entropy and cosmological bounces
  • Study Loop Quantum Cosmology (LQC) and its implications for black hole physics
  • Explore the second law of thermodynamics in the context of cosmology
  • Investigate Poincaré’s recurrence principle and its relevance to entropy and cosmological models
USEFUL FOR

Physicists, cosmologists, and anyone interested in the intersection of thermodynamics and cosmology, particularly those exploring the implications of entropy in the universe's evolution.

hurk4
Messages
131
Reaction score
0
The art to become special and the bounce.

Roger Penrose in his book “The Road to Reality” showed us a road/trajectory from a super special low entropy state, at the Big bang, to nowadays’ less special and higher entropy state. Nothing wrong with symmetric physical laws valid during that trajectory, but a reverse road is so improbable that in practice it is impossible that it will ever occur. Entropy, practically, increases continuously according to our second law of thermodynamics.
I have a few remarks and questions here.
1) To start with: to me, in spite of that, it seems not real that the universe will die as a consequence of the second law.
Further:
2) Coincidentally it seems to me that the shown Penrose trajectory (page 730) starts after a bounce provided that the LQC bounce (Ashtekar, Bojowald) took place.
3) As a consequence Penrose story/(shown trajectory) appears to me only the after bounce (WH) state story and does not take into consideration (,or tell) a pre bounce (BH) story of the pit of our verse. Or does it?
4) So far we were never able to look into any BH because of its Schwarzschild shield.
5) But, of course we are (with our observable universe) in our own pit of our verse, presumably, after the inner bounce i.e. in its WH phase happened. It is now and here where we notice the 2nd law.
6) But might it be possible, or does or can bounce theory say anything about a possibility, that during the pre bounce state in a BH (the, or) a decrease of entropy takes place, eventually with a higher probability (than in a WH state) because of the shrinking domain (increasing pit’s density), which of course we could never observe (so far)?
7) To me an explanation for a recovery to a low entropy state, relying on state dependent (BH<-> WH) statistics, might seem of (great) importance to, easier, explain infinity in time, back and forward.
It might be here where Poincaré’s recurrence principle can be realized in full?
[8) It might then eventually be not the case that a full recovery takes place in just one bounce, but averaged over all bounces/verses of the universe’s space time the second law might finally be eliminated?]
 

Attachments

Space news on Phys.org
Ooops!
I was just reading and responding to your other thread, and what you said reminded me of Penrose ideas. So I was recommending a Penrose lecture to you.

And here I find you are already ahead of me! You have already been thinking about his proposal.

So my post on the other thread was not necessary. I was talking about this lecture:
www.Newton.cam.ac.uk/webseminars/pg+ws/2005/gmr/gmrw04/1107/penrose/

OK, so I will look at what he says on page 730 of his book and get back to you later this evening.
======================

BTW my suspicion is that the second law requires an observer, who determines what shall be the macrostates.
So although I respect Penrose and follow what he says with much interest, I do not fully accept his conclusions about the cosmological bounce. I don't think one can so easily conclude that a bounce would violate the second law. (who is the observer?)

I have to help my wife fix supper, but later this evening I will think about it some more. thanks for raising some interesting issues!
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
6K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
10K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
5K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
4K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
4K
  • · Replies 41 ·
2
Replies
41
Views
11K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
7K