News The birther movement: racist? total crap?

848
4
Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

That is just so not true. As I said before, I'm not going to start linking crackpots, but you really should have a look. There are tons of websites out there still displaying that story. Google it. Please.
I think what lisa is saying, is that the percentage of people who bought into that theory was a lot less than the percentage buying into this theory.
 

Al68

Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Everything that can be produced as evidence has been produced.
So you're saying the original (long form) certificate of birth cannot be produced?
It's not really fair to say that a birth certificate isn't an acceptable proof of birth.
One can argue semantics all day, but the document provided is a different document from the one being referred to as unprovided, despite a similar sounding name. I actually have both for myself, but have never used the term "birth certificate" to refer to the short computer printout you can get them to print up at your local state building. Some do, but most are fully aware that it's not the same thing.

But one thing that some birthers are wrong about is the claim that "you can't get into kindergarten with that thing, much less a drivers license". That's simply false. You don't need an actual birth certificate to get a drivers license, a "certification of live birth" printout is fine for that purpose. The reason is simple: it's easy for them to print out from database info, and not everyone's birth is registered at the time. Not having your birth registered immediately doesn't disqualify one from obtaining a drivers license, or running for President. But it means that no actual birth certificate exists, so a certification of live birth is printed up from data provided to the state later, sometimes many years after birth.
I think the fact that you see political mud-flinging as a party-specific issue has more to do with you than with the parties themselves.
Nope, it's the Democratic Party itself. And I wasn't referring to political mud-flinging.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

russ_watters

Mentor
18,959
5,122
Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

I think what lisa is saying, is that the percentage of people who bought into that theory was a lot less than the percentage buying into this theory.
The story wasn't active long enough for anyone to even take a poll on it - it happened during the election. Then he lost, so it died. But that still means you have no basis for your claim that the percentage of people who bought into it was a lot less. All we can really say for sure is that it got substantial media attention.
 

Office_Shredder

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
3,734
99
Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Yep, that was the conclusion of the Senate hearing on it: it's too boring to pay attention to. :uhh:
I know there was a Senate resolution, but I don't know how much effort went into investigating this issue when it was passed. If you have a link you'd like to present that shows there was a serious effort in the Senate to settle the issue I'd appreciate it. Heck, the House passed a resolution which states that Obama was born in Hawaii
 

Al68

Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

I know there was a Senate resolution, but I don't know how much effort went into investigating this issue when it was passed. If you have a link you'd like to present that shows there was a serious effort in the Senate to settle the issue I'd appreciate it.
There wasn't much effort to settle it because it didn't need much effort. Being born on U.S. territory is "natural born", even if not in one of the states. There was no other issue in dispute.
Heck, the House passed a resolution which states that Obama was born in Hawaii
Whether Obama was born in Hawaii is a factual, not a legal, issue. The McCain issue was a legal, not a factual, issue. The facts were not in dispute, obviously negating the need for an investigation of facts.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
848
4
Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

But that still means you have no basis for your claim that the percentage of people who bought into it was a lot less. All we can really say for sure is that it got substantial media attention.
You know, it's pretty frustrating when I can't try to clarify what another member is saying without being "called out". I didn't make any such claim, and I don't appreciate the accusation that I did.
 

Office_Shredder

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
3,734
99
Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

There wasn't much effort to settle it because it didn't need much effort. Being born on U.S. territory is "natural born", even if not in one of the states. There was no other issue in dispute.Whether Obama was born in Hawaii is a factual, not a legal, issue. The McCain issue was a legal, not a factual, issue. The facts were not in dispute, obviously negating the need for an investigation of facts.
A legal question on what the definition of natural born is requires researching and discussing what the definition of the words are. There are people who say that even if Obama was born in Kenya, he's a natural born citizen by being born to an American citizen. It seems to me that the McCain question is much harder to settle than the Obama one in principle
 
848
4
Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

I personally believe that both instances were just pathetic political maneuvers and nothing more. I think John McCain and Barack Obama both had every right to become president.

The point of this thread was to discuss whether or not racism plays some part in this. I believe it does. It is a lot easier to accuse a part-black man with a foreign-sounding name of such a thing than a white-skinned man with a more American name, and to have the accusation gain momentum.
 
334
14
Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

That's MSNBC!, the liberal answer to Fox, forwarding the anti-McCain crackpottery as if it could possibly have had some merit. I suppose they could just be a bunch of black racists, but I'm thinking no...just run-of-the-mill crackpots.
There is a slight difference- McCain really was born outside the US in the canal zone, which really did lead some legal scholars to question his eligibility. In a very wise move, the senate did pass a resolution affirming his natural born citizenship. No conspiracy theory, a minor issue about definition of natural-born-citizen, resolved by the senate almost instantly.

Whereas Obama was born in Hawaii. Anyone with a functioning brain knows Obama was born in Hawaii. The conspiracy (like all conspiracy theories) isn't about facts, it flies in the face of the facts.
 

Al68

Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

A legal question on what the definition of natural born is requires researching and discussing what the definition of the words are. There are people who say that even if Obama was born in Kenya, he's a natural born citizen by being born to an American citizen. It seems to me that the McCain question is much harder to settle than the Obama one in principle
Researching the McCain legal question should take but a few minutes. It's pretty easy to determine that "natural born citizen" means citizen by virtue of birth instead of by the naturalization process. What else could it mean?
 

Al68

Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Anyone with a functioning brain knows Obama was born in Hawaii.
Anyone with a functioning brain with an IQ over 65 knows that they don't know for sure where Obama was born.
 
334
14
Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Anyone with a functioning brain with an IQ over 65 knows that they don't know for sure where Obama was born.
Sure, in exactly the same way you can't be sure that the US landed on the moon, or al qaeda was responsible for 9-11... in the same way you can't be sure the holocaust happened. Its the same pathological thinking.
 

turbo

Gold Member
3,028
45
Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Yeah, the fact that "birthers" are mostly the same people who have always opposed Democrats of all races is a total coincidence. Must be because he's black. :uhh:

As far as his original long form birth certificate, I always thought he probably had one, but the recent shenanigans of Hawaii officials, including the Governor, changing their stories and left wing pundits trying to say "there is no issue" does have me wondering. Especially the claim that it exists but the President isn't allowed to have a copy for himself, even though I've seen no link to any Hawaii law that says that, instead ofhttp://codes.lp.findlaw.com/histatutes/1/19/338/I/338-18".

I'm not claiming there isn't such a law specific to original birth records, just that I haven't seen it quoted or linked anywhere. Perhaps someone could provide a link?

My guess is that the President has it in his possession, but it's in his best political interest not to release it now. Just a wild guess.
So you're willing to feed into this nastiness? Why?

Let me remind you that there were birth notices in two (not one, but TWO) Honolulu newspapers. These were not the type of self-congratulatory notices that family could insert in papers for a fee, but the type of notices that the social editors of newspapers of that era would generate by reporting births, deaths, etc, recorded by local hospitals and other agencies.

If you think that Obama has in his possession his original "long-form" birth certificate (a phrase so loved by the birthers) and refuses to release it, perhaps you ought to come up with your proof. Conspiracy theories are very easy to manufacture, and I'm pretty sure that they are forbidden under the guidelines of this forum. You might want to check.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Vanadium 50

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Education Advisor
23,316
5,682
Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

There wasn't much effort to settle it because it didn't need much effort. Being born on U.S. territory is "natural born", even if not in one of the states
Actually, this is not settled. Barry Goldwater was born in the territory of Arizona, and was challenged. The lawsuit was, of course, moot after the election of 1964.

As pointed out, John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone, which, like Arizona, was a territory.

Much legal opinion has been written about the phrase "natural born", and I think the predominant (but not universal) opinion is that it is likely to be interpreted as "citizen at birth". Under this theory President Obama is natural born whether he was born in Hawaii or on Mars.

By the way, this kind of challenge is nothing new. There were "birthers" under the administration of Chester A. Arthur.
 
4,453
57
Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Has anybody of the discussers here any idea what a [strike]fight[/strike] discussion like this does to the image of the USA?
 

CAC1001

Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

There are Trig Palin birthers too. Regarding Obama's birthplace, the thing about conspiracies, real conspiracies, is that they tend to be almost impossible to keep under wraps. Usually some skilled journalist (s) will figure things out. If President Obama truly had not been born in Hawaii, I think someone would have figured it out by now.
 

Al68

Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

So you're willing to feed into this nastiness?
Yep, gotta love feeding into nastiness! :uhh:

Seriously, it is "feeding into this nastiness" by many on the left, by acting like there is something to hide, that I've been objecting to.
Let me remind you that there were birth notices in two (not one, but TWO) Honolulu newspapers.
Why would you remind me of that? Have you misread one of my posts?
If you think that Obama has in his possession his original "long-form" birth certificate (a phrase so loved by the birthers) and refuses to release it, perhaps you ought to come up with your proof.
So I need proof for something I labeled as a "wild guess". Have you forgotten all the assertions you make as if they were settled fact, yet consistently refuse to provide any substantiation whatsoever. I guess substantiation is only required for wild guesses, not assertions passed off as undisputed fact.
Conspiracy theories are very easy to manufacture, and I'm pretty sure that they are forbidden under the guidelines of this forum. You might want to check.
Nope. Wild guess <> conspiracy theory.
 

Al68

Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Actually, this is not settled. Barry Goldwater was born in the territory of Arizona, and was challenged.
I was referring to the issue being settled by the Senate hearing for McCain, not settled back then in that lawsuit. But regardless, people will differ on whether they think any issue is settled.
Much legal opinion has been written about the phrase "natural born", and I think the predominant (but not universal) opinion is that it is likely to be interpreted as "citizen at birth". Under this theory President Obama is natural born whether he was born in Hawaii or on Mars.
I was under the impression that someone born outside the U.S. had to be naturalized. You mean all those kids I fathered overseas in my Navy days are natural born citizens of hhe U.S.? :biggrin:
 

Al68

Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Sure, in exactly the same way you can't be sure that the US landed on the moon, or al qaeda was responsible for 9-11... in the same way you can't be sure the holocaust happened. Its the same pathological thinking.
LOL, seriously? That Godwin was one smart dude, apparently.

As far as your point, those conspiracy theories are not analogous to this issue in any relevant, significant way. They're far more analogous to those of the left claiming that Republicans are on the side of the rich against poor people, want to throw old people out on the streets, etc. Except those you mention are far less delusional and hateful.
 
848
4
Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

It was never my intention to discuss the truth value of the conspiracy. I don't think moving on is really "nastiness". There are always going to be doubters and haters, you can't dedicate too much time to arguing with them. Frankly there are much more pressing issues and I would appreciate a president who tends to them.

This thread was never intended to be about right vs. left. Al68, if you want to turn it into that, I would respectfully ask that you start your own thread.
 

Al68

Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

This thread was never intended to be about right vs. left. Al68, if you want to turn it into that, I would respectfully ask that you start your own thread.
LOL. Request denied. I just love to "turn things into" right vs left, you know, since that's never how they are when I find them.

I do try to refrain from assuming racism for no apparent reason, and offering no logical explanation. Then claiming "we all know" it's true. :bugeye:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Office_Shredder

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
3,734
99
Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

I was referring to the issue being settled by the Senate hearing for McCain, not settled back then in that lawsuit.
You seem to be claiming the Senate has lent a lot of authority and thought to this issue, when the most I can find is a single non-binding resolution. Can you please source these Senate hearings so we can see exactly what happened?
 

russ_watters

Mentor
18,959
5,122
Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

I do try to refrain from assuming racism for no apparent reason, and offering no logical explanation. Then claiming "we all know" it's true. :bugeye:
That's part and parcel of being an Obamafan: the fact that Obama is black is enough evidence to believe that any criticism of Obama must be due to racism, regardless of if there is actually any evidence for the racism.

Maybe people don't remember, but we had this discussion several times during the campaign. It was always the same: Obama is obviously (obviously!) the far superior candidate, so any criticism of him must always be due to racism. Riiiiiiight. That's just as much a conspiracy theory as the birther movement itself.

See, all this discussion of why the birther movement is larger than the McCain eligibility issue ignores the point: regardless of size, both exist but one is assumed to be due to racism while the other is assumed not to be. At the same time, though, bringing into it that up to 40% of Republicans may believe the birther movement - in the context of this thread - means people in this thread think 40% of republicans are racists?

Here's how it really works: marketing. With good enough marketing, you can get a disturbingly large fraction of the population to believe something that isn't true. We've discussed the problem numerous times here as it pertains to evolution: Are Americans who don't accept evolution all racists or are have they just succumbed to a highly successful marketing campaign?
 
Last edited:

lisab

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
1,832
616
Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

That is just so not true. As I said before, I'm not going to start linking crackpots, but you really should have a look. There are tons of websites out there still displaying that story. Google it. Please.
Yay! You hit it on the head, they're crackpots! Whereas *actual, serious candidates* on the right believe this stuff.

Big, big difference!
 

Related Threads for: The birther movement: racist? total crap?

  • Posted
7
Replies
157
Views
13K
  • Posted
Replies
18
Views
5K
  • Posted
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • Posted
Replies
13
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • Posted
Replies
23
Views
4K
  • Posted
2
Replies
27
Views
3K
  • Posted
3
Replies
60
Views
9K

Hot Threads

Top