News The birther movement: racist? total crap?

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The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

There exists a group of people who seek to cast doubt on the legitimacy of Barack Obama's citizenship and his birth certificate. I have searched very diligently and still have not found a single quantum of credibility to this theory.

Sure, any document can, in theory, be faked. People can be manipulated and evidence can be tampered with. The same could be said about the documents of every other president, congressperson, or senator. Certainly when the quality of the allegedly fake document exceeds the limitations of your ability to detect it's falsehood, one must concede.

Though it is undoubtedly just a political maneuver, I cannot help thinking that it is also an appeal to racism. I am rarely one to blow the racism whistle, but come on: we all know that if Barack was white and had a more traditional American name, none of this would have come up.
 
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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

A Certification of Live Birth from Hawaii was made available many years ago, which is a short form birth certificate, and is evidence of birth in any court.

Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.
 

Office_Shredder

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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

A Certification of Live Birth from Hawaii was made available many years ago, which is a short form birth certificate, and is evidence of birth in any court.

Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.
Ah yes, this completely clears up the OP's questions.

I think it's one of those things where people say they believe it, but they really just like the idea that it could be believed by someone, which will help them gain political power/support
 

russ_watters

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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

I am rarely one to blow the racism whistle, but come on: we all know that if Barack was white and had a more traditional American name, none of this would have come up.
Really? So you don't remember almost the exact same issue being raised about McCain?
MSNBC said:
Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., and his advisers are doing their best to brush aside questions — raised in the liberal blogosphere — about whether he is qualified under the Constitution to be president. But many legal scholars and government lawyers say it's a serious question with no clear answer.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23415028/ns/nightly_news/

That's MSNBC!, the liberal answer to Fox, forwarding the anti-McCain crackpottery as if it could possibly have had some merit. I suppose they could just be a bunch of black racists, but I'm thinking no...just run-of-the-mill crackpots.
 

Pengwuino

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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Yah this is the same ol political BS. People hear stuff like that and think "oh yah that sounds good, i believe it!". Hell, I personally thought the guy was born on a military base. Sounded good, why not, go for it.

There's nothing racist about it, some people just want SOMETHING to pick up on to claim he's illegitimate. Same stuff that happened during Bush's tenure.
 

Al68

Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

There exists a group of people who seek to cast doubt on the legitimacy of Barack Obama's citizenship and his birth certificate. I have searched very diligently and still have not found a single quantum of credibility to this theory.

Sure, any document can, in theory, be faked. People can be manipulated and evidence can be tampered with. The same could be said about the documents of every other president, congressperson, or senator. Certainly when the quality of the allegedly fake document exceeds the limitations of your ability to detect it's falsehood, one must concede.

Though it is undoubtedly just a political maneuver, I cannot help thinking that it is also an appeal to racism. I am rarely one to blow the racism whistle, but come on: we all know that if Barack was white and had a more traditional American name, none of this would have come up.
Yeah, the fact that "birthers" are mostly the same people who have always opposed Democrats of all races is a total coincidence. Must be because he's black. :uhh:

As far as his original long form birth certificate, I always thought he probably had one, but the recent shenanigans of Hawaii officials, including the Governor, changing their stories and left wing pundits trying to say "there is no issue" does have me wondering. Especially the claim that it exists but the President isn't allowed to have a copy for himself, even though I've seen no link to any Hawaii law that says that, instead ofhttp://codes.lp.findlaw.com/histatutes/1/19/338/I/338-18".

I'm not claiming there isn't such a law specific to original birth records, just that I haven't seen it quoted or linked anywhere. Perhaps someone could provide a link?

My guess is that the President has it in his possession, but it's in his best political interest not to release it now. Just a wild guess.
 
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848
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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Really? So you don't remember almost the exact same issue being raised about McCain?
Nope...I don't. I honestly make zero effort to listen to MSNBC or Fox, and I hadn't heard that.
 

lisab

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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Really? So you don't remember the exact same issue being raised about McCain?
It didn't have the same level of hostility, IMO.

Besides, it's widely accepted that being born on an overseas military base is the same as being born in the US. The thousands of US citizens born on foreign bases have *exactly* the same rights as everyone else - no one would ever think to deny them their rights.

I think the issue around McCain's birth was largely a media-manufactured "story du jour" - they come and go all through election season. This one didn't stick - it was a non-issue from the get-go.
 

russ_watters

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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Nope...I don't. I honestly make zero effort to listen to MSNBC or Fox, and I hadn't heard that.
:uhh::uhh::uhh: It's not like MSNBC was the only place you could have seen it. How 'bout USA Today?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-02-28-mccain-natural-born_N.htm

New York Times?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html

Washington Post?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/junkie/archive/junkie070998.htm

CNN?
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-04-20/opinion/chin.natural.born_1_natural-law-united-states-and-subject-citizenship-clause?_s=PM:OPINION [Broken]

This got quite a bit of airtime during the campaign.
 
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russ_watters

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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

It didn't have the same level of hostility, IMO..... [snip] I think the issue around McCain's birth was largely a media-manufactured "story du jour" - they come and go all through election season. This one didn't stick - it was a non-issue from the get-go.
Well sure: he didn't win, so it died!

Anyway, I'm not going to start linking crackpot liberal sites to prove hostility (nor do I think it should be necessary). My point is simply that it had quite a bit of traction and I don't think it is reasonable to use the fact that it died to show it was less serious than Obama's.
Besides, it's widely accepted that being born on an overseas military base is the same as being born in the US. The thousands of US citizens born on foreign bases have *exactly* the same rights as everyone else - no one would ever think to deny them their rights.
Not according to MSNBC....

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it had any legitimacy, I'm just saying it happened and it was picked-up and debated in mainstream media. A lot.
 
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Pengwuino

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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

OH it was McCain who was born on a military base? God I'm out of it
 

Al68

Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

It didn't have the same level of hostility, IMO.
That's because no one objected to discussing the issue. No one was screaming incessantly "there's nothing to see here, no issue at all, the debate is over, etc."

McCain provided all info and documents, and the issue was only whether being born on U.S. territory qualified as being a "natural born" citizen.
The thousands of US citizens born on foreign bases have *exactly* the same rights as everyone else - no one would ever think to deny them their rights.
That's not really relevant. Arnold Schwarzenegger, and any naturalized citizen, has the rights of a citizen, too. But there are qualifications to be eligible for President in addition to citizenship, like being born in the U.S. Not meeting the requirements for the office isn't a violation of rights.
 
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jtbell

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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Really? So you don't remember almost the exact same issue being raised about McCain?
But did 40 percent of Democrats believe that McCain was ineligible to be President?
 

Office_Shredder

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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

McCain provided all info and documents, and the issue was only whether being born on U.S. territory qualified as being born in the U.S.
I don't even know if he provided any documents. Certainly few people believed he wasn't born on US territory and the issue of whether that qualifies as being a natural born citizen was never settled beyond people deciding it was a boring one and not paying attention to it/bringing it up in the media
 

lisab

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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

That's because no one objected to discussing the issue. No one was screaming incessantly "there's nothing to see here, no issue at all, the debate is over, etc."

McCain provided all info and documents, and the issue was only whether being born on U.S. territory qualified as being born in the U.S.
They "screamed incessantly" that there was "nothing to see", "no issue", and "the debate is over"....because there was, in fact, nothing to see, no issue, and the debate was over.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/04/25/birthers.obama.hawaii/index.html?iref=NS1

Look, there is *no* comparison between the McCain birth "controversy" and the crazy Obama-is-a-Kenyan birthers. Not even close!
 

russ_watters

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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

But did 40 percent of Democrats believe that McCain was ineligible to be President?
1. So you're saying that 40% of Republicans don't believe Obama was eligible? Do you have a reliable source for that? All I can find is links to a single poll that even typically irresponsibly liberal news outlets like Huffington Post couple with a disclaimer about reliability: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/31/new-poll-less-than-half-o_n_248470.html

2. The McCain conspiracy theory didn't have time to fester like Obama's did. Again, he lost.
3. We're getting pretty far from a racist motivation here....
 

Al68

Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

They "screamed incessantly" that there was "nothing to see", "no issue", and "the debate is over"....because there was, in fact, nothing to see, no issue, and the debate was over.
That's a very odd thing to do, which was my point. Are you aware that one can get a "certification of live birth" even if there was never an original birth certificate?

I think Obama was most likely born in Hawaii, but claiming "the debate is over" despite unresolved issues, unanswered questions, and ever-changing stories by officials is suspicious at best.

Plus, Democrats typically use terms like "crazy" and "crackpot" for other people whenever they are trying to obfuscate the truth themselves. That's what has me wondering about this issue.
 
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Al68

Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

I don't even know if he provided any documents. Certainly few people believed he wasn't born on US territory and the issue of whether that qualifies as being a natural born citizen was never settled beyond people deciding it was a boring one and not paying attention to it/bringing it up in the media
Yep, that was the conclusion of the Senate hearing on it: it's too boring to pay attention to. :uhh:
 

russ_watters

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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Look, there is *no* comparison between the McCain birth "controversy" and the crazy Obama-is-a-Kenyan birthers. Not even close!
Why not? When you have a major media outlet saying the crackpots are credible, I'd think that would be a pretty big deal. Don't you?
 

lisab

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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

That's a very odd thing to do, which was my point. Are you aware that one can get a "certification of live birth" even if there was never an original birth certificate?

I think Obama was most likely born in Hawaii, but claiming "the debate is over" despite unresolved issues, unanswered questions, and ever-changing stories by officials is suspicious at best.
Did you read the link? What exactly are the unresolved issues that you have?
 

lisab

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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Why not? When you have a major media outlet saying the crackpots are credible, I'd think that would be a pretty big deal. Don't you?
No one outside of the media gave or gives a rat sass that McCain was born in Panama, it is a complete non issue.

Compare that to the passion and numbers of people who follow the birther movement. It was this one issue that catapulted one play-candidate - Donald Trump, no less - from dabbling with the idea to becoming an actual candidate! That is one powerful issue!

Again: there is *no comparison* between the the McCain "controversy" and the birther movement. Not even close!
 
848
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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

I think Obama was most likely born in Hawaii, but claiming "the debate is over" despite unresolved issues, unanswered questions, and ever-changing stories by officials is suspicious at best.
Everything that can be produced as evidence has been produced. It's not really fair to say that a birth certificate isn't an acceptable proof of birth.

Plus, Democrats typically use terms like "crazy" and "crackpot" for other people whenever they are trying to obfuscate the truth themselves. That's what has me wondering about this issue.
I think the fact that you see political mud-flinging as a party-specific issue has more to do with you than with the parties themselves.
 
848
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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Again, like I said, I don't believe that it was only brought up because of race. But I would contend that Obama's race is a factor in why it has gained so much momentum.
 

Al68

Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

Did you read the link? What exactly are the unresolved issues that you have?
Yes, I read the link. I had already read that exact page before I posted in this thread. It makes a lot of assertions, and shows the same scan of the "certification of live birth" that everyone knows about. That link doesn't resolve anything that wasn't already known.

And I've already mentioned a couple of unresolved issues, but you can find more with a little research on the issue.
 

russ_watters

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Re: The "birther" movement: racist? total crap?

No one outside of the media gave or gives a rat sass that McCain was born in Panama, it is a complete non issue.

Compare that to the passion and numbers of people who follow the birther movement.
That is just so not true. As I said before, I'm not going to start linking crackpots, but you really should have a look. There are tons of websites out there still displaying that story. Google it. Please.
 

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