The breaking of the flavour permutational symmetry

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of breaking the flavour permutational symmetry S3 to generate mass for the first two generations of quarks. Participants explore the implications of a specific matrix transformation and seek clarification on its invariance under certain transformations, as well as its relation to mass generation and CP violation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant inquires about the meaning of a specific expression related to the mixed symmetry term of a doublet complex tensorial representation of S3, and seeks to understand the transformations that leave a given matrix invariant.
  • Another participant suggests that the problem could be easily solved using computer-algebra software like Mathematica, indicating they have already found a solution.
  • Some participants express preferences for linking to abstracts of papers rather than full PDFs, emphasizing the importance of accessibility for readers.
  • A participant shares their Mathematica code and findings related to the eigenvalues of the matrix in question, contributing to the technical depth of the discussion.
  • One participant expresses gratitude for the responses and indicates they have understood the problem, mentioning the potential for generating mass and CP violation with the discussed matrix.
  • A later post raises a question about the absence of discussion regarding S4 or A4 in the context of the quark sector.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying preferences for how to reference academic papers, but there is no consensus on the interpretation of the matrix invariance or the implications of the discussed concepts. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the broader implications of S4 or A4 in the quark sector.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific mathematical properties and transformations related to the matrix, but the discussion includes unresolved aspects regarding the assumptions and definitions involved in the matrix's invariance.

btphysics
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Hello,I read an article about fo generating mass for the first two generations of quarks by breaking the flavour permutation symmetry S3. In the top of the page 5 of the following article: http://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-ph/9807214v2.pdf ,
they mention that "Mq1 transforms as the mixed symmetry term of the doublet complex
4tensorial representation of the S(3)d diagonal subgroup of SL(3) ⊗ SR(3)". What does this means? What transformations on the left and on the right leave the following matrix invariant:

[tex]\begin{pmatrix} A1 & iA2 &-A1-iA2\\ -iA2& -A1 &A1+iA2\\ -A1+iA2&A1-iA2&0 \end{pmatrix}[/tex]

Best regards.
 
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Thanks for the the answer. In that article they give the same explanation, and the matrix is almost equal. I continua to don´t see any clues about what means that expression and moreover under what transformations that matrix is invariant.
 
Please please guys never link to the PDF
 
I preferred that paper because it gives some extra information on the symmetric group's representations.
 
ChrisVer said:
I preferred that paper because it gives some extra information on the symmetric group's representations.
The paper might be fine, but please link to the abstract, not the pdf. There is no point in loading the whole pdf just to read the abstract (=what most readers will do).
 
mfb said:
The paper might be fine, but please link to the abstract, not the pdf. There is no point in loading the whole pdf just to read the abstract (=what most readers will do).

:rolleyes: well I didn't send the paper to the OP to read the abstract...but OK for the rest readers you are right...
 
Returning to the OP, that should be an easy problem to do if one has some computer-algebra software like Mathematica. I did it in a couple minutes with Mma. Should I give my solution here?
 
lpetrich said:
Returning to the OP, that should be an easy problem to do if one has some computer-algebra software like Mathematica. I did it in a couple minutes with Mma. Should I give my solution here?
Perhaps even the Mathematica code, better than the solution :)
 
  • #10
Links to the abstracts of the papers:
[1304.6644] Quark sector of S3 models: classification and comparison with experimental data
[hep-ph/9807214] The breaking of the flavour permutational symmetry: Mass textures and the CKM matrix

GIven matrix A in the OP, I think that btphysics wants a matrix T such that T.A.T^(-1) = A. Multiply on the right by T and one gets T.A = A.T, and that is a bunch of linear equations in the components of T.

My Mathematica code:
Code:
(* The OP's matrix -- it is Hermitian *)
amat = {{A1,I*A2,-A1-I*A2},{-I*A2,-A1,A1+I*A2},{-A1+I*A2,A1-I*A2,0}};
avars = {A1,A2};
(* Decomposition assuming that A1 and A2 vary independently *)
amlist = D[amat,#]& /@ avars;
(* Matrix that will leave it invariant *)
trmat = Array[t,{3,3}];
(* This ought to be zero *)
conds = (trmat.# - #.trmat)& /@ amlist;
(* Find the transformation matrix *)
trmsol = trmat /. ToRules[Reduce[Thread[Flatten[conds]==0]]];
SparseArray[trmsol - ((t[3,3]-t[3,2])*IdentityMatrix[3]+t[3,2])]
So trmat has form a*I + b.

The original matrix has form
$$
\{A1, A2\} \cdot
\left\{\left(
\begin{array}{ccc}
1 & 0 & -1 \\
0 & -1 & 1 \\
-1 & 1 & 0 \\
\end{array}
\right),\left(
\begin{array}{ccc}
0 & i & -i \\
-i & 0 & i \\
i & -i & 0 \\
\end{array}
\right)\right\} $$
(Output courtesy of Mathematica TeXForm)

I found its eigenvalues with Eigenvalues[amat]
$$ \left\{0,-\sqrt{3} \sqrt{\text{A1}^2+\text{A2}^2},\sqrt{3}
\sqrt{\text{A1}^2+\text{A2}^2}\right\} $$
 
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  • #11
Sorry for only answer now, but last weeks i had some personal issues. I am much grateful for your replies, and i have already understand the problem leptrich, you understood my doughts. With this type of matrix next one can generate mass for the 1st generation and even sufficient CP violation.
 

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