- #31
Fliption
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It is no truer than the approach he was denouncing. Scientifically, it was wrong.
The Central Role of Consciousness in Physics
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The discussion centers around the absence of a neuroscience or philosophy of mind board in a physics forum, highlighting the importance of consciousness in understanding physical theories. Participants express a desire for more dedicated spaces for these topics, suggesting that current philosophy forums could accommodate discussions on consciousness. There is a debate on the role of consciousness in physics, with some arguing that consciousness is an emergent property of quantum processes, while others assert that consciousness does not play a role in physical theories. The conversation touches on relativity and quantum mechanics, with differing views on whether consciousness influences physical laws. Some participants advocate for the idea that consciousness and material processes are interconnected, while others maintain that material processes are primary and consciousness is secondary. The dialogue reflects a broader philosophical inquiry into the nature of consciousness and its implications for understanding the universe, with calls for further exploration and clarification of these complex relationships.
It is no truer than the approach he was denouncing. Scientifically, it was wrong.
- #32
Mentat
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Actually, my dear fellow, though I hate to dredge up old arguments that we agreed to leave alone, there is no scientifically possible way to postulate consciousness' interacting at the subatomic level. In fact, most of the sciences that ever deal with either phenomenon (subatomic particles or consciousness) give clear reasons (though not directly, since this is not their purpose) why this cannot be the case.
- #33
Fliption
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I am not referring to Tiberius' point about consciousness. I am referring to his further elaboration that quantum physics is nothing more than classical billard ball physics. His assertion that the uncertainty principal is nothing more than the measuring object making physical contact with the measured object, hence affecting the measurement, is just not accurate. The uncertainty principal is more fundamental than that.
I would have thought you'd have figured out by now that my problem with Tiberous' post had nothing to do with the objection to consciousness. It was more his writing quantum physics off as nothing more than classical physics and therefore completely "explained". I thought you and I agreed that there was much to learn in quantum physics. It was clear that Tiberious did not think this was true.
Also, on the consciousness topic, if you can point to text that makes the claims you are talking about above I'd like to see it. I haven't seen such things in my readings. Thanks
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- #34
Mentat
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Tiberius was (AFAIK) well aware of the superposition of quantum particles, and other such implications of quantum uncertainty. The fact that he used "billiard-ball"-ish illustration is no more a flaw in his argument than Schrodinger's "cat" analogy was a flaw in his (since wave/particle duality is utterly negligble in macroscopic objects like cats).
What claims?
- #35
Fliption
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I'm not sure I understand your point because to me when he says this:
"On the macro level wave functions are collapsed automatically by all of the particles bouncing into them"
...he is incorrect. Particles bounce into non-collapsed wave functions as well. So whether a particle bounces into it or not is not the determining factor, only a necessary condition. The only thing in the experiments I posted that correlated perfectly with collapse is a "potential for knowledge". Keep in mind that whether this is true or not is not the issue. The issue is that at least one group of scientist don't believe that Tiberius is correct which directly contradicts what he was claiming i.e. that his view was established knowledge.
These...
Would love to read these views if you can reference them.
- #36
Mentat
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Oh. I hadn't realized that he'd been so sure of it...thought he was just correcting the idea that living (and/or conscious) beings have a special role in the quantum realm.
Well, for reasons why consciousness is a macroscopic phenomenon that occurs in the brain, I suggest Consciousness Explained or Synaptic Self - though I think any simple textbook on Biology will tell you that thinking processes occur in the brain.
The fact that they occur as processes of the brain, means that they are not special at the subatomic level (since, as any high school textbook will tell you - and as I'm sure you are already aware - brains are made of cells which are made of molecules which are made of atoms...and atoms are the smallest unit that still displays the qualities of it's element...ergo, a brain is not distinguishable from a rock at the subatomic level). For an expert in the field that actually has to state that consciousness is not important for subatomic processes, there's Entanglement by Amir D. Aczel, or The bit and the pendulum: from quantum computing to M theory -- the new physics of information by Tom Siegfreid, or any textbook on QM (at least, all of the ones that I have read).
- #37
Fliption
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Of course I understand these things. But you didn't say "thinking" in your previous post. You said 'consciousness'. I guess I think of them as being different.
- #38
Mentat
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Oh...I hadn't considered that. Consciousness is awareness, and awareness is pretty much always in the form of thought (I can't think of when it wouldn't be (pun intended
)), so I just took for granted that there wasn't much of a distinction to be made between "thought" at the subatomic level and "consciousness" at the subatomic level.- #39
Fliption
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OK then this explains why I haven't read anything that made the claims you have. To me, the words refer to different things. There are no philosophy/science topics titled "The problem of Thinking".
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- #40
Mentat
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And yet thought is only possible in highly conscious beings - thus making the two problems completely inter-related (and rather impossible, on their own, I might add).
- #41
Fliption
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But that doesn't make them the same thing, does it? They refer to two different specific things. Inter-related doesn't mean they can be equated.
Also, what other way would you know if something is highly conscious except for its ability to demontrate thought? You assume the two are inter-related because you don't know what other property to look for. This gets back to Hypnagogue's point I believe. You have to make all sorts of assumptions about consiousness in general based on what you know about humans.
- #42
Mentat
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No, I make this assumption of consciousness, because of the very definitions that have been attributed to consciousness. In order for one to be "thoughtfully aware" of their surroundings or "capable of contemplation", they must be able to think, and these are common definitions - or parts of definitions - of consciousness.
Anyway, as to their being equated, I don't just assume that they can be equated, this is a result of how they are commonly defined. Besides, the discussion is not about thought and consciousness, and how they are related, it's how consciousness can influence subatomic phenomena. And, since consciousness cannot exist without thought (by it's very definition), and thought is macroscopic phenomenon, I hold that consciousness cannot influence subatomic objects.
- #43
Rader
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If thought and consciousness is only a macroscopic phenomenon and not a mircroscopic phenomenon by what process then how did a atom find its way to evolve to what we are, to ask these questions. Where do you make the dividing line between, when something thinks?
- #44
Mentat
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But an atom does not decide to evolve, and it doesn't need to. In fact, no species ever has to decide to evolve, as natural selection and variation will cause this anyway. The atom becomes part of a molecule, because that's the way things work at the atomic level, there is an attraction which creates covalent bonds, whether the atom "likes it or not"...and since the atom doesn't like anything (it can't think) it complies and become a part of a "more evolved" structure, without every having to think about anything.
No, thought is a macroscopic process, otherwise there would be no use for a frontal cortex.
- #45
Rader
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On the most fundamental level atoms do evolve, if they did not they would always stay atoms. They evolve into molecules, this is a fact. Yes you are right there is an attraction which creates covalent bonds, that's the means they evolve but there is only one choice each time that is made of a multitude of choices. Free will decision and consciouness has to exist on the most funadamental level, we are the proof at the long end of the evolutionary chain. When you reach natural selection and variation you are getting high up into the evolutionary chain, once again just more words which mean free will decision and consciousness. As for your frontal cortex that's the last step at the moment for free will decision and consciousness.
You did not answer my question by what process then, did a atom find its way to evolve to what we are, to ask these questions. You say it does not need to yet it is a fact it did. I understand we can not fully understand each other. Is your answer then that it is just purely mechanical, purely laws and physics.
If you want the proofs read Raul O. Leguizamon, Book title in spanish> En torno al origen de la vida which means The cause of the origen of life. ISBN 987-1036-09-4
I have heard the answers> by chance, over a long time, that's the way it is, God did it all at once, heat and lighting, that's the way things work, probability, extraterestral life forms, we are an illusion ect.ect.
I can understand the spontaneous creation of something from nothing but only if there is a reason behind it.
- #46
Royce
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It has been said before that the materialistic view point is at a disadvantage in trying to explain or understand metaphysical and subjective phenomena. In my opinion this is because materialistic views are upside down, viewing from the bottom, the effect and trying to decide the cause.
The physical laws and processes are viewed as prime and as the cause of everything where they are actually an effect of a cause that the materislistic view as an effect.
In my nonmaterialistic view consciousness and mind are primary. The mind of God, or the creator, or the universe, or conscious singularity, whatever you want to call it, is prime, the cause of everything else.
This is not just a religious dogmatic view point. The laws of physics are logical and ordered. They are not random or chaotic. It is easy for a materislist to say that the laws of science are the prime cause but who or what made the laws just exactly so, so that conscious life would emerge and be self aware.
The ultimate reality in my opinion is the mind of the creator, the conscious universe. The next order of reality is the mind through which the consciousness and awareness act and influence the material world. The lowest order of reality is the material world which is the result or effect of the consciousness that is or is the creator of the universe.
I have no proof nor any support other than observations from another view point. In my mind these observations are just as real and reasonable as the observations from the materialistic view point.
It is hard for a materialist to accept this view point, I know, because materialist do not even accept the existence of the subjective or metaphysical realm of reality.
How can one hope to understand or explain reality if one will only accept the existence of one third of reality and view the illusion, the effect, the material universe as the one and only and thus prime cause of everything. In my view this is upside down and backward as I have said. Materialist may say that that may be but it is all that we have to go on, all that we can know and measure as real. To which I reply as I have done so often before; yes, but that is onlky because you refuse to look at or for anything else. To you a rock is the ultimate reality and prime cause whereas to me that rock is only illusion and exists only in the mind. It is sensed and perceived as real and thus by effect is real.
The physical laws and processes are viewed as prime and as the cause of everything where they are actually an effect of a cause that the materislistic view as an effect.
In my nonmaterialistic view consciousness and mind are primary. The mind of God, or the creator, or the universe, or conscious singularity, whatever you want to call it, is prime, the cause of everything else.
This is not just a religious dogmatic view point. The laws of physics are logical and ordered. They are not random or chaotic. It is easy for a materislist to say that the laws of science are the prime cause but who or what made the laws just exactly so, so that conscious life would emerge and be self aware.
The ultimate reality in my opinion is the mind of the creator, the conscious universe. The next order of reality is the mind through which the consciousness and awareness act and influence the material world. The lowest order of reality is the material world which is the result or effect of the consciousness that is or is the creator of the universe.
I have no proof nor any support other than observations from another view point. In my mind these observations are just as real and reasonable as the observations from the materialistic view point.
It is hard for a materialist to accept this view point, I know, because materialist do not even accept the existence of the subjective or metaphysical realm of reality.
How can one hope to understand or explain reality if one will only accept the existence of one third of reality and view the illusion, the effect, the material universe as the one and only and thus prime cause of everything. In my view this is upside down and backward as I have said. Materialist may say that that may be but it is all that we have to go on, all that we can know and measure as real. To which I reply as I have done so often before; yes, but that is onlky because you refuse to look at or for anything else. To you a rock is the ultimate reality and prime cause whereas to me that rock is only illusion and exists only in the mind. It is sensed and perceived as real and thus by effect is real.
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- #47
Rader
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Well put Royce.
If any materialist knows his profession to all its depth he has to realize the impossiblity of inert matter to organize itself all by itself. The long evolutionary chain of perfection from the right charge for the electron to the thought processes of us in the frontal cortex dictate that there has to be something more. Free will decision and consciouness has to exist on the most funadamental level. These qualities would have to be imbeded in the DNA that first caused it all. Materialism can explain HOW it works but not WHY it works.
- #48
Royce
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Thank you Richard. A belated welcome to the Physics Forum. We subjective idealist need all the numbers and help we can get to counter the rampant objective materialists here.
- #49
quantumdude
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Aggregations of atoms form larger structures primarily by electromagnetic processes.
To this date, no one has successfully drawn such a line. But to ascribe the impetus of the atoms to form such aggregations to something like human consciousness is to stretch the concept of 'consciousness' beyond any usefulness.
The part in red[/color] simply does not follow from the evidence you presented. There is no reason to think that free will is involved in electromagnetic processes, no matter how many such processes are strung together in a sequence to result in a rock, a star, a tree, or a human being. In fact, the evidence actually implies the contrary position: that free will is not a facet of the microscopic world. That is, the predictability of the results of experiments implies that the forces under which aggregations of matter form are dumb forces. You will not find such consistency in any social science experiment, in which at least the illusion of free will among human subjects is manifest.
I thought he did answer it by mentioning covalent bonding, but in case it is not clear I'll say it again: The processes are primarily electromagnetic.
- #50
quantumdude
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Why?
Yes, but that "something more" is different for the materialist than it is for the idealist. For the latter, the "something more" has to be this unintelligible, unverifiable, unfalsifiable concept called "god", an ad hoc assumption with absolutely no evidentiary basis. For the materialist, the "something more" is a better scientific theory, perhaps to be discovered by future generations.
So you keep asserting, but I see no valid argument in favor of it. As far as I can see, your entire case is based on the fallacy of composition. You seem to be arguing along the same lines as:
"Atoms are colorless. Cats are made of atoms. Therefore, cats are colorless."
which is not valid reasoning.
We all know that. A materialist would greet this statement with a great big "so what?" That is because the materialist knows that the universe is not known a priori, but by observation. When one takes that perspective of epistemology of science, it becomes clear we think that such "why?" questions are unanswerable. Idealists, on the other hand, mistakenly assume that the universe is known a priori, and that one should be able to answer these questions just by reasoning them out. Of course, that is false, so idealists fabricate this concept of a "super mind" and call it god, despite the fact that there is no evidence to support such a notion.
The above quote from you seems to stem from the flawed concepts of idealism. Since materialists do not have that hangup, it is not a problem for us.
- #51
Royce
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If I, as an Idealist, think that the "why/" question is the most important question that can be asked; and, I answer the question, at least in part, that the answer is that all of the material universe was created as it was and all that has happened as it has for the purpose of bringing about intelligent, conscious, self aware, life and to support and maintain that life, I can then taking this as a hypothisis and work backwards.
This of course presupposes that there is purpose and intent to the universe. I eventually reach the most fundamental laws and theories of physics and say that an electron, whatever that may actually be must have the properties that it has to make life possible. This is a simplistic example, of course; but, I'm sure that you can get the drift of what I'm saying.
This way of viewing things of course implys a conscious rational mind in charge that started it all in motion after making the laws and properties so that it would all work. It leads of course to God or a god or creator or conscious universe.
I am aware that this can be called circular reasoning as the conclusion is implied in the premise. It is the same process however as materialist use in that they start out saying there is no God nor any purpose to the universe. Then looking only at the material universe say that they see no evidence of a god or purpose. Materialist usually, just as you did, leave out the words "physical" "material" and "objective" when they say that they find no evidence. There is evidence. There are tons of evidence or an ancidotal and experiential nature that is subjective not physical, material or objective.
We seem to have come full circle as this was my main bone of contention and main point in my first number of posts when I first joined the PF's. I still think that the rift is only one of viewpoint and/or opinion and not an irreconcilable difference in reality.
- #52
quantumdude
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But it is a completely fabricated, ad hoc hypothesis. The thing that is immediately evident is the material universe, not the Super Mind that you postulate to be behind it. You take a concept called 'other minds', something that we only know of by observing the behavior of 'other bodies'. You then--for no apparent reason--detatch the concept of 'other mind' from 'other body' and endow it with superhuman powers to come up with the concept of god. This is totally implausible until one can demonstrate the existence of even a single brainless mind, let alone one that it all powerful.
This is the same fallacy of composition that I already pointed out.
A materialist need not say that there is no god (and indeed I do not say that). A materialist only takes that which is immediately evident and does not assume the existence of things that are not immediately evident.
I left those qualifiers out becuase when I say "evidence", I take it as understood that there is no such thing as "evidence" that does not fall into a category of physical, material, or obectively verifiable.
That is only evidence to you. To say that such subjective verification counts as evidence is to distort the idea of evidence beyond all usefulness, because it is only evident to one person. Furthermore, my experiential "evidence" and yours do not agree. So whose, then is to be accepted? The only possible answer is, "My evidence is accepted by me, and yours is accepted by you." [/color]
That is a very important point, and a fatal flaw of your idealism.
The metaphysics of your idealism insists that absolute truths can be ascertained by reason alone in the form of a priori knowledge of reality. But the epistemology of your idealism must necessarily include "evidence" that is only subjectively verifiable to support its assumptions about the mind. Without some objective standard for distinguishing between my "evidence" and your "evidence", the attainment of absolute truths--which must be true for everyone---is impossible.
Thus, your idealism is completely incoherent.
- #53
Rader
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Tom i figured you would show up sooner or later to back Mentate. Thanks for answering.
Because nothing has evolved into something that realizez there is something greater than I. Thats the answer.
The answer will be the same for you or I. Enate matter if you like has organized itself into conscioussly questioning its beginnings.
Future generations will know more and more of the HOW but the WHY will not change.
How did you come up with that statement. I would say that atoms are colorless until they find a match, and when thy do, the cats made of those atoms would be all colors.
Seriously the standard model shows us why the sky is blue and that atoms do have colors but only because our level of conscious perception allows it.
I do not think we are getting anywhere, you arguments for you are as valid as mine are for me. But take this for a thought. That conscious intellengece evolved from inerte nothing for no reason is in a materialistic standpoint ilogical.
The above quote from me seems to stem from the belief of a creator which for me is the only sane reason we are talking to each other. I have no hangup.I have enjoyed exchanging ideas with you.
Because nothing has evolved into something that realizez there is something greater than I. Thats the answer.
The answer will be the same for you or I. Enate matter if you like has organized itself into conscioussly questioning its beginnings.
Future generations will know more and more of the HOW but the WHY will not change.
By what means is it possible then?
How did you come up with that statement. I would say that atoms are colorless until they find a match, and when thy do, the cats made of those atoms would be all colors.
Seriously the standard model shows us why the sky is blue and that atoms do have colors but only because our level of conscious perception allows it.
I do not think we are getting anywhere, you arguments for you are as valid as mine are for me. But take this for a thought. That conscious intellengece evolved from inerte nothing for no reason is in a materialistic standpoint ilogical.
The above quote from me seems to stem from the belief of a creator which for me is the only sane reason we are talking to each other. I have no hangup.I have enjoyed exchanging ideas with you.
- #54
Rader
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You would have to agree that free will decision and human consciousness is a human and only human attrubute? I do not wish to find consistency in any social science experiment. I have a free will and can consciously decide what to believe. Human understanding and conscioussness is ever evolving. What is true today was not yesterday and will not be tomorrow. Not the whole truth but our truth. Ask Copernicus.
- #55
Royce
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The thing that is immediately evident is that the only evidence that we have of the material world is subjective perceptions of our sensory inputs which are know to be limited and fallible even with the best instruments to augment our senses. Your evidence is no more substantial than the subjective evidence of my personal experiences and the testemony of other who say that they have seen the same things. Just as your evidence must be collaborated so must mine.
You take the word of other scientists. I take the word of other metaphysiscists or idealist as well.
I did not say that the "other (super) mind" did not have a body. That is you assumption. I do not know if it, God, does or does not have a body whether material or immaterial. Some thing that the universe itself may be the superminds body.
It is no more implausable than the Big Bang or string hypothisis as there is no known way to test either or varify predictions no matter how well the math fits and supports them. It is no more unintuitive or weird than QM.
Your assumption is that your sensory inputs and you subjective perceptions are true and real, more true and real than my subjective perceptions of the metaphysical. This is simple bias. Your view is that the material is real and prime, the ultimate reality; and' metaphysics is illusion. My view point is that the metaphysical is real ad prime, the ultimate reality; and, the material is the illusion. Who, if either of us, is right? I don't know any more than you do.
Tom there are thousands of books, articles, stories and first hand tesemony of personal experience with methaphysics and God as well as my own personal experience. Since they collaborate my experienc I am not willing to dismiss them as not real evidence. Again the above statement is pure materialistic bias. "It aint so unless I say its so." It is the very thing that keeps any materialist from seeing anything that they don't want to see or have to admit might be real.
"If I don't accept or look at any such evidence then I can honestly say that there is no evidence." This is the open mind of a true scientist?
- #56
Mentat
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Yes, it is all governed by the laws of physics. There is no choice necessary since it is a known fact that all particles follow the path of least resistance.
Usted habla Espanol? Yo soy Puerto Riceno nativo, pero vivo en lost Estados Unidos, y hablo Ingles mejor que hablo Espanol.
- #57
Mentat
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And he had to come and do such an awesome job of it, too . Makes me look like an amateur .
- #58
Mentat
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How does this answer Tom's question? He was asking why you think a materialist has to accept that matter can organize itself on its own, without the electromagnetic force.
The "why" may not even exist. You have given us no reason to believe that there is such a thing as "the 'why'".
Didn't he already tell you that it happens do to the electromagnetic force? I'm sorry, but I just can't see how you could have missed this.
But you would be creating an ad hoc hypothesis, which violates Occam's Razor and the way that Logic is supposed to be done.
The standard model shows us nothing of the kind. The standard model only tells us what different kinds of particles exist.
Not at all. In fact, consciousness could not have evolved for a reason, because reason is only assigned by conscious beings, and thus the conscious being always exists before any reasons[/color].
- #59
Mentat
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Wrong, the thing that is immediately evident is that which we percieve, not how we percieve it. That is added later, which is what (I think) Tom was trying to explain to you.
Obviously you are not educated in these fields (I mean no offense, simply an observation), since if you were you would know that these theories are substantiated by enormous bodies of evidence (except for the string theory, but we're still working on that one
), and that denying that weakens your side immeasurably.But, really, that is not a belief at all, it is the lack of a belief. Much like atheism (which is the choice not to take for granted that god exists; but also not taking for granted that he doesn't), it satisfies Occam's Razor much better than those that have gone "a step further" by making an assumption. You see, Tom has not taken for granted anything but what can be observed. While you, OTOH, have assumed that there is a metaphysical part to this, which we can't observe (and thus can't show to exist at all).
Seriously, ask a child who was raised completely separate from civilization, and see whether he tells you of the things that exist separate from him, or instead, tells you of some metaphysical mind which he possesses that processes all of the incoming data.
But your viewpoint is less "valid", by the standards of logic (and science, I might add).
- #60
Rader
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Do not take it so personal, nuke me if you like.
I read and write Spanish or English but English is my first language, as i was born in Chicago. If you can read the book it is worth the effort. Not sure you can get it in English, I read it in Spanish.
Hasta luego, buenas noches señores
Adios