The integral is independent from the road that unites A and B,there is a f...

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    Independent Integral
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the proof of a theorem concerning vector fields and path independence of line integrals. Participants explore the necessary and sufficient conditions for the integral of a vector field to be independent of the path connecting two points, A and B, in a given region. The conversation includes theoretical aspects, mathematical reasoning, and references to established theorems such as Green's Theorem.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant outlines the theorem stating that a vector field F is path-independent if there exists a differentiable function f such that F equals the gradient of f.
  • Another participant suggests defining a function f based on the integral of the vector field along a chosen path, arguing that this function is well-defined due to the path independence assumption.
  • Several participants discuss the implications of Green's Theorem, stating that if certain conditions on the partial derivatives of M and N are met, the integral over a contour is zero, indicating path independence.
  • One participant emphasizes that the condition for path independence is only satisfied under specific assumptions related to the differentiability of the function f.
  • A later reply presents a method to define a function φ based on the integral of the vector field, demonstrating how the partial derivatives relate back to the components of the vector field.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the completeness of the proofs and the conditions required for path independence. There is no consensus on the best approach to demonstrate the other direction of the theorem, and multiple competing methods are presented without resolution.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the conditions for the application of Green's Theorem and the assumptions regarding the differentiability of the function f are crucial but not universally applicable. The discussion highlights the complexity of extending these ideas to higher dimensions.

evinda
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Hey! ;)
I am looking at the proof of this theorem:
"Let $F$ be a vector field with components $M,N$ and $P$,$F=Mi + Nj+Pk$,$M,N$ and $P$ continuous at a region $D$.Then a necessary and sufficient condition,so that the integral $\int_A^BFdR$ is independent from the road that unites $A$ and $B$ at $D$ is that there is a differentiable function $f$,so that $F=\nabla{f}=if_x+jf_y+kf_z$ at $D$.
At this case,the value of the integral is given by:
$\int_A^BFdR=f(B)-f(A)$ "

For the one direction,the proof is the following:
We suppose that there is a differentiable function $f$,such that: $F=\nabla {f}=if_x+jf_y+kf_z$.
We see that $\frac{df}{dt}=f_x\frac{dx}{dt}+f_y\frac{dy}{dt}+f_z\frac{dz}{dt} \Rightarrow \frac{df}{dt}= \nabla {f} \frac{dR}{dt}$,where $R(t)=(x(t),y(t),z(t))$.
Since, $F=\nabla {f} \Rightarrow FdR=\nabla {f} dR \frac{dt}{dt}=df \Rightarrow \int_A^BFdR=f(B)-f(A)$

How can show the other direction?? :confused:
 
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Here is a suggestion. Pick a point $p$ in the region. Define the following function $f$ on your region. Given a point $x$, choose any path from $p$ to $x$, and define $f(x)$ to be the integral along that path of your vector field. Notice that $f(x)$ is well-defined because by assumption the vector field is path-independent. Then argue that $\nabla f$ recovers your vector-field.
 
evinda said:
Hey! ;)
I am looking at the proof of this theorem:
"Let $F$ be a vector field with components $M,N$ and $P$,$F=Mi + Nj+Pk$,$M,N$ and $P$ continuous at a region $D$.Then a necessary and sufficient condition,so that the integral $\int_A^BFdR$ is independent from the road that unites $A$ and $B$ at $D$ is that there is a differentiable function $f$,so that $F=\nabla{f}=if_x+jf_y+kf_z$ at $D$.
At this case,the value of the integral is given by:
$\int_A^BFdR=f(B)-f(A)$ "

For the one direction,the proof is the following:
We suppose that there is a differentiable function $f$,such that: $F=\nabla {f}=if_x+jf_y+kf_z$.
We see that $\frac{df}{dt}=f_x\frac{dx}{dt}+f_y\frac{dy}{dt}+f_z\frac{dz}{dt} \Rightarrow \frac{df}{dt}= \nabla {f} \frac{dR}{dt}$,where $R(t)=(x(t),y(t),z(t))$.
Since, $F=\nabla {f} \Rightarrow FdR=\nabla {f} dR \frac{dt}{dt}=df \Rightarrow \int_A^BFdR=f(B)-f(A)$

How can show the other direction?? :confused:

For semplicity let's suppose to have a function f (x,y) of two variables and define...

$\displaystyle M = \frac{\partial {f}}{\partial {x}}, N = \frac{\partial {f}}{\partial {y}}\ (1)$

If in a region D with contour C the following condition is verified... $\displaystyle \frac{\partial{M}}{\partial{y}} = \frac{\partial{N}}{\partial{x}}\ (2)$

... then is...

$\displaystyle \int_{C} (M\ d x + N\ d y) = 0\ (3)$

... so that the integral from A to B is independent to the path connecting A to B. All that is consequence of the Green's Theorem that extablishes that... $\displaystyle \int_{C} (M\ d x + N\ d y) = \int \int_{D} (\frac{\partial {N}}{\partial {x}} - \frac{\partial{M}}{\partial{y}})\ dA\ (4)$In the case of three [or more...] variables the details are a little more complex... Kind regards $\chi$ $\sigma$
 
chisigma said:
For semplicity let's suppose to have a function f (x,y) of two variables and define...

$\displaystyle M = \frac{\partial {f}}{\partial {x}}, N = \frac{\partial {f}}{\partial {y}}\ (1)$

Hold on. This is not the other direction is it?
For the other direction this is what needs to be proven...
 
chisigma said:
For semplicity let's suppose to have a function f (x,y) of two variables and define...

$\displaystyle M = \frac{\partial {f}}{\partial {x}}, N = \frac{\partial {f}}{\partial {y}}\ (1)$

If in a region D with contour C the following condition is verified... $\displaystyle \frac{\partial{M}}{\partial{y}} = \frac{\partial{N}}{\partial{x}}\ (2)$

... then is...

$\displaystyle \int_{C} (M\ d x + N\ d y) = 0\ (3)$

... so that the integral from A to B is independent to the path connecting A to B. All that is consequence of the Green's Theorem that extablishes that... $\displaystyle \int_{C} (M\ d x + N\ d y) = \int \int_{D} (\frac{\partial {N}}{\partial {x}} - \frac{\partial{M}}{\partial{y}})\ dA\ (4)$In the case of three [or more...] variables the details are a little more complex...

I apologize for the fact that my answer has been incomplete and may be it produced some misundestanding. Remaining in the case of a two variables function, what I intended to say is that, if we start from an f(x,y) which is twice differentiable in a region D with a contour C, then, setting... $\displaystyle F = \nabla f = i\ f_{x} + j\ f_{y} = i\ M + j\ N\ (1)$

... the condition for which the integral $\displaystyle \int_{A}^{B} F\ dR$ doesn't depend from the path connecting A to B is that the following condition, consequence of the Green's Theorem, holds... $\displaystyle \frac{\partial {M}}{\partial {y}} = \frac {\partial {N}}{\partial {x}}\ (2)$

But (2) is verified only if $\displaystyle f_{x y} = f_{y x}$ and that is true only if the Schwartz Theorem Hypotheses are respected and in not true for all twice differentiable f(x,y). For more details see... http://www2.math.technion.ac.il/~mcwikel/h2m/SchwarzFxyFyx.pdfKind regards $\chi$ $\sigma$
 
Last edited:
If the integral is independent of the way then we can define
$$\phi(x,y,z) = \int_{(x_0,y_0, z_0)}^{(x,y,z)} \mathbf F \cdot d\mathbf R$$
where the integral is along any curve from a fixed point $(x_0,y_0, z_0)$ to $(x,y,z)$.
This is well-defined since it does not depend on which path we integrate along.
In particular we can pick a curve going from $(x_0,y_0, z_0)$ to $(a,y, z)$ and then along a straight line segment from $(a,y, z)$ to $(x,y,z)$:
$$\phi(x,y,z)
= \int_{(x_0,y_0, z_0)}^{(a,y,z)} \mathbf F \cdot d\mathbf R + \int_{(a,y, z)}^{(x,y,z)} \mathbf F \cdot d\mathbf R
= \int_{(x_0,y_0, z_0)}^{(a,y,z)} \mathbf F \cdot d\mathbf R + \int_a^x M(t,y,z) dt$$

The first integral is independent of x, so
$$\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial x}(x,y,z) = \frac{\partial}{\partial x}\int_a^x M(t,y,z) dt = M(x,y,z)$$

Similarly we can proof that $$\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}(x,y,z)=N$$ and $$\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial z}(x,y,z)=P$$.

In other words, if $\int_A^B \mathbf F \cdot d\mathbf R$ is independent of the path taken, then $\phi$ is the required differentiable function $f$.$\qquad \blacksquare$
 

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