The latest developments in energy storage technology

[OCR]

Did anybody watch NOVA this week ? Some guy has solved the pyrotechnics problem with lithium batteries.

Yeah, I saw that....

 

[Trainee Engineering]

ok, another question. I take it Tesla's Powerwall is currently the most advanced phase in energy storage tech? we can only manage to store 14 kWh worth of energy in such a huge space? and it's still very expensive too.
so, if we use the analogy of data storage, we're still in floppy disk era where we can only store 1.44MB worth of data, not yet in CD/DVD era where we could store hundreds of MB, let alone flashdisk era where we can already store gigabytes worth of data in a very small package. is this analogy describe current phase in energy storage technology?

 

[sophiecentaur]

Certainly that's good sensible advice.
old jim

I have the seal of approval so I'll continue. The bare refrigeration units are available for self fitting into boats etc. and you can make the enclosure as thermally efficient as you like, unlike a ready made fridge. You can keep the mean consumption very low if you use thick enough insulation and use a 'chest' design with a thick lid. The biggest demand is when you put a new item in that's not already cold (or if you actually try to freeze down stuff). They're blissfully quiet runners, too and you can put the external condenser a good distance away from the unit. A bit on the pricey side but it does what it says on the tin.

 

[sophiecentaur]

flashdisk era where we can already store gigabytes worth of data

1TB on a USB stick is available in my local shop. Where will it all end?

 

[Trainee Engineering]

1TB on a USB stick is available in my local shop. Where will it all end?

yeah, I mean, we're still at 14kWh in 44 in × 29 in × 5.5 in package, so if I want to store 210 kWh, it will take 15 units which will take a lot of space.

 

[mfb]

Packing data better is much easier than increasing energy density. As analogy, replace a single rock by many small pebbles: you increased the number of objects (data), but you didn't increase the total mass (stored energy).

Batteries have a low energy density compared to chemical storage systems (like fuel for the generator). They are also more dangerous in connection with water.

 

[mheslep]

... if we use the analogy of data storage, ...

Not a good idea. The advances in information technology involved storing a fundamental unit of information (on/off) in ever smaller physical structures. Much of IT hardware engineering became exercises in managing complexity, i.e. how does one quickly carve 10 million transistors into a square mm, control all their interactions, and have them finally act as a useful macro level device. Energy storage has few if any parallels.

 

[jim hardy]

I take it Tesla's Powerwall is currently the most advanced phase in energy storage tech? ...
so, if we use the analogy of data storage, we're still in floppy disk era where we can only store 1.44MB worth of data, ...
is this analogy describe current phase in energy storage technology?

Energy and data are not alike.
Energy in quantity will hurt you.

I am skittish whenever:
in high places (gravitational potential energy)
going fast (kinetic)
in airplanes (both of above)
around high speed machinery(mechanical)
around high pressure steam(thermal)
around dynamite(concentrated chemical energy, ) in 1960's we kids could buy it in rural hardware stores, and did , but i learned to respect its capability
around electrical sources capable of high current (because copper vapor follows same gas laws as dynamite vapor)so i think your analogy

yeah, I mean, we're still at 14kWh in 44 in × 29 in × 5.5 in package, so if I want to store 210 kWh, it will take 15 units which will take a lot of space.

is more in tune with steam power ca 1830
when to make ten horsepower took a reciprocating engine weighing many stones and a riveted firetube boiler prone to explode destroying the building and cooking its occupants.
http://www.hevac-heritage.org/electronic_books/boiler_explosions/1-BOILER_EXPLOSIONS_IN_PICTURES.pdf

I'm just not ready yet to admit big lithium batteries into my life.

Boeing was too stubborn to face that with 777 ..

mfb and mhselep have it right.

old jim

 

[NTL2009]

I recall seeing an estimate somewhere, of just how far a lithium battery could advance. It was beyond my feeble knowledge of chemistry, but they were able to estimate just how dense you could go with lithium, if you assumed you could magically avoid all the real world limitations. IIRC it was between one and two orders of magnitude. And then the real world intervenes.

Anyone here know of a source, or able to take a stab at it?

 

[discountbrain]

Hi all,

I'm interested in the latest development in battery technology. as of now, from what I understand, the most advanced tech in energy storage (battery) is created by Tesla, the PowerWall. but, even that, can only store 14kWh per unit. my house consumption is about 10kWh per day. my question is, what are the type of batteries out there available to the public? I'm only concerned of these things:
1. capacity --> I need to store 2-3 weeks worth of energy (in case of blackouts), so, it's somewhere around 140kWh - 210 kWh. if possible, I need it to be less than 10 units (so each unit is around 21kWh)
2. durability --> must be able to store huge amount of energy for a long period of time without dissipating. Now, it won't be charged and discharging frequently. charged only after a blackout, and won't be discharging until the next blackout, so storing for long time
3. warranty --> if possible, above 10 years warranty that energy leakage is less than 5%

price is not an issue. what are my options?
what's the latest type of battery suited for this type of usage?

thanks

I just learned Eos Energy is planning to sell their rechargeable zinc/air batteries to the consumer in 2017. I'm calling them tomorrow to see when I can get some. They have been selling them to utilities for a while now. Zinc is quite inexpensive, these batteries can be cycled over 5k (maybe 10k) times, they store 3 TIMES the energy of Li-ion batteries. Look at their website; they are many times superior. I think I'll buy Solar World solar panels. They are made in the USA and some of the most efficient ones there are. This year will be the year I go off grid. I will install this myself-I think installers might think they can rip u off. I will buy a transfer switch and get a certified electrician to install it. This will be so I will still be attached to the grid while makings sure everything is working OK. Transfer switches are not uncommon. They are for when someone has their own generator hooked up to their system.

 

[discountbrain]

Someone here mentioned the cost of solar vs the grid. Somewhere else people were quoting what it cost to get the power company to hook u up with electric. They were giving figures like $10k! I found that hard to believe. It might be pretty expensive though if u lived more than 1/2 mi from existing power.

 

[mheslep]

store 3 TIMES the energy of Li-ion batteries

One problem with metal air batteries has always been that their *power* density is dozens of times lower than a traditional electrolyte battery. Diffusing oxygen into the metal tends to happen at a much lower rate than ions diffuse in li-ion, especially when nitrogen and water vapor get in the way. So, it's long been possible to buy non rechargeable metal air batteries with greater *energy density* than li-ion, but to obtain the same power required infeasible parallel banks of metal air.

 

[mfb]

Eos energy expects $160/kWh for a large-scale project. For 210 kWh that is still $35,000 worth of batteries.

The power density would be fine for a 3 week storage. Typical values are 500 Wh/kg and 100 W/kg, discharge times longer than 10 hours will work without problems.

 

[anorlunda]

In our enthusiasm about technologies, everyone seems to be ignoring @jim hardy 's safety warning in #68.

210 kWh = 765 megajoules = 0.18 tons of TNT = 163 kg of TNT. A short circuit could release that energy in a very short time. It is utter foolishness to think of storing that much energy in a residence. (not to mention a residence subject to flooding)

If we want to discuss living off the grid with solar plus batteries, that's OK (edit: then start a new thread). Storing 2-3 weeks of electric energy is very different and very dangerous.

 

[DrClaude]

Closed pending moderation.

 

[berkeman]

If we want to discuss living off the grid with solar plus batteries, that's OK (edit: then start a new thread). Storing 2-3 weeks of electric energy is very different and very dangerous.

Thread will remain closed with that reminder about safety.