The Modern Geometric View of Black Holes

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter center o bass
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Surfaces
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the geometric interpretation of black holes, specifically focusing on null surfaces and their relationship to event horizons as presented in Hobson and Efstathiou's book on General Relativity. Participants explore the mathematical conditions that define these surfaces and the implications for stationary axisymmetric spacetimes, including the Kerr metric.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the relationship between the normal vector ##n^\mu## and the differential vector ##dx^\mu##, particularly regarding the condition of orthogonality expressed as ##n_\mu dx^\mu = 0##.
  • There is a discussion about the implication of the condition ##g^{\mu \nu} n_\mu n_\nu = 0##, with some participants suggesting it indicates that the normal vector lies in the surface.
  • Participants explore the ability to choose coordinates such that the surface can be expressed as ##f(r) = 0##, questioning the validity of this choice in the context of the Kerr metric.
  • One participant notes that light-like vectors can be orthogonal to themselves due to the signature of the metric, which complicates the interpretation of the normal vector's relationship to the surface.
  • There is a proposal that if two vectors coincide, they may be proportional, leading to further exploration of the implications of the equations ##n^\mu n_\mu = 0## and ##n^\mu dx_\mu = 0##.
  • The concept of integral curves of the normal field being null geodesics is introduced, with a detailed mathematical exploration of this idea.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of the mathematical conditions related to null surfaces and event horizons. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing interpretations and no consensus reached on the implications of the arguments presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the mathematical framework and the potential for varying interpretations based on the properties of the metric and the nature of the vectors involved.

center o bass
Messages
545
Reaction score
2
Im trying to understand an argument from Hobson and Estathiou's book on GR where they argue that null-surfaces; i.e surfaces with a null-vector as a normal are in general horizons. Their argument goes as follows (page 316) in the book:

"Before discussing the particular case of a stationary axisymmetric spacetime,
let us briefly consider null 3-surfaces in general. Suppose that such a surface is
defined by the equation
$$f(x^\mu) = 0$$
The normal to the surface is directed along the 4-gradient ##n_\mu = \partial_\mu f##
(remembering that f is a scalar quantity), and for a null surface we have
$$g^{\mu \nu} n_\mu n_\nu = 0$$
This last property means that the direction of the normal lies in the surface
itself; along the surface

$$df = n_\mu dx^\mu = 0$$

and this equation is satisfied when the
directions of the 4-vectors ##dx^\mu## and ##n^\mu## coincide. In this same direction, from the property ##g^{\mu \nu} n_\mu n_\nu = 0## we see that the element of length in the 3-surface is ##ds = 0##. In other words, along this direction the 3-surface is tangent, at any given point, to the lightcone at that point. Thus, the lightcone at each point of a null 3-surface
(say, in the future direction) lies entirely on one side of the surface and is tangent
to the 3-surface at that point. This means that the (future-directed) worldline of a
particle or photon can cross a null 3-surface in only one direction, and hence the
latter forms an event horizon.
In a stationary axisymmetric spacetime the equation of the surface must take
the form

$$f(r, \theta) = 0$$
Moreover, the condition that the surface is null means that

$$\partial_\mu f \partial^\mu f = 0$$

which, for a metric of the form (13.4), reduces to

$$g^{\theta \theta} (\partial_{\theta} f)^2 + g^{r r}(\partial_r f)^2 = 0$$

This is therefore the general condition for a surface ##f(r,\theta)= 0## to be an event horizon.
We may, however, choose our coordinates r and ##\theta## in such a way that we can
write the equation of the surface as f(r)= 0, i.e. as a function of r alone. In this
case, the condition (13.8) reduces to

$$g^{rr} (\partial_r f)^2 = 0$$

from which we see that an event horizon occurs when ##g^{rr} = 0##, or equivalently
##g_{rr} = \infty##. This is consistent with our analysis of the Schwarzschild metric, for
which ##g = \infty## at ##r = 2M##."

I have a few questions to this argument:

A crucial step in their argument is the observation that ##n^\mu## and ##dx^\mu## coincide, but how can this be when ##n_\mu dx^\mu = 0##? Have I missed something about four vectors when I think this is the condition for orthogonality?

Why does the condition ##g^{\mu \nu} n_\mu n_\nu = 0## mean that the direction of the normal lies in the surface?

And finally the author argues that one can choose coordinates such that the surface can be expressed as f(r) = 0 and the result is later applies to the Kerr metric. Why is it so that one can make this choice in the case of the Kerr metric?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Hi Bass! Let ##\Sigma\subseteq M## be the null surface given by ##\zeta(x^a) = 0 ## and ##\nabla^{a}\zeta## be the normal to ##\Sigma##. Furthermore, let ##x^{a}(\lambda)## be a curve on ##M## such that for any point on the image of the curve, ##\frac{\mathrm{d} x^{a}}{\mathrm{d} \lambda}\nabla_{a}\zeta = 0## i.e. the tangent field to the curve is always orthogonal to the normal field. Note that then ##\frac{\mathrm{d} \zeta(x^{a})}{\mathrm{d} \lambda} = 0## so ##\zeta(x^a) = 0## all along the image of the curve which is of course only possible if the curve lies on ##\Sigma## implying that ##\frac{\mathrm{d} x^{a}}{\mathrm{d} \lambda}## is tangential to ##\Sigma## at every point on the image of the curve. We can then naturally broaden this to vector fields. Thus, since ##\nabla_{a}\zeta \nabla^{a}\zeta = 0 ## everywhere, ##\nabla^{a}\zeta## must be tangential to ##\Sigma##.

As for your second question, what exactly is ##dx^{\mu}##?
 
center o bass said:
[...] A crucial step in their argument is the observation that ##n^\mu## and ##dx^\mu## coincide, but how can this be when ##n_\mu dx^\mu = 0##? Have I missed something about four vectors when I think this is the condition for orthogonality?

Why does the condition ##g^{\mu \nu} n_\mu n_\nu = 0## mean that the direction of the normal lies in the surface? [...]

Hello,
remember that g_{\mu\nu} is not strictly speaking a metric, it has signature (-+++) so there are vectors orthogonal to themselves: light-like vectors.

Ilm
 
Ilmrak said:
Hello,
remember that g_{\mu\nu} is not strictly speaking a metric, it has signature (-+++) so there are vectors orthogonal to themselves: light-like vectors.

Ilm

I'm agree, but I suppose that one means that when two vectors coincide that they are proportional to each other. Does the equations ##n^\mu n_\mu =0## and ##n^\mu dx_\mu = 0## imply that

$$ dx^\mu = \alpha n^\mu?$$
 
WannabeNewton said:
Hi Bass! Let ##\Sigma\subseteq M## be the null surface given by ##\zeta(x^a) = 0 ## and ##\nabla^{a}\zeta## be the normal to ##\Sigma##. Furthermore, let ##x^{a}(\lambda)## be a curve on ##M## such that for any point on the image of the curve, ##\frac{\mathrm{d} x^{a}}{\mathrm{d} \lambda}\nabla_{a}\zeta = 0## i.e. the tangent field to the curve is always orthogonal to the normal field. Note that then ##\frac{\mathrm{d} \zeta(x^{a})}{\mathrm{d} \lambda} = 0## so ##\zeta(x^a) = 0## all along the image of the curve which is of course only possible if the curve lies on ##\Sigma## implying that ##\frac{\mathrm{d} x^{a}}{\mathrm{d} \lambda}## is tangential to ##\Sigma## at every point on the image of the curve. We can then naturally broaden this to vector fields. Thus, since ##\nabla_{a}\zeta \nabla^{a}\zeta = 0 ## everywhere, ##\nabla^{a}\zeta## must be tangential to ##\Sigma##.

As for your second question, what exactly is ##dx^{\mu}##?

I guess you can think of it as ##\frac{d x^{mu}}{d \lambda}##. Does your argument essentially say that since the normal vector is orthogonal to the surface and the normal vector is orthogonal to itself, it must be parallel with the surface?
 
Essentially yes, Bass, but keep in mind that just because a vector is orthogonal to a vector field at some arbitrary point and another vector is orthogonal to that same vector field at another arbitrary point doesn't mean the two vectors are parallel to each other. The key point here is that the normal field is orthogonal to the surface everywhere and that it is orthogonal to itself everywhere.
 
I honestly have no idea what ##dx^{\mu}## is (perhaps you could quote the relevant passage in the text, that might make it clearer). What is true, however, is that the integral curves of the normal field ##\xi ^{a} = \alpha\nabla^{a}\zeta## are in fact null geodesics. To see this, note that ##\xi^{a}\nabla_{a}\xi^{b} = \beta\xi^{b} + \frac{1}{2}\nabla^{b}(\xi^{c}\xi_{c}) - \xi^{c}\xi_{c}\nabla^{b}\ln \alpha## where ##\beta = \xi^{a}\nabla_{a}\ln\alpha##. But we know that ##\xi^{c} \xi_{c} = 0## on ##\Sigma## and we can take ##\nabla^{b}(\xi^{c}\xi_{c})## to be in the direction of ##\xi^{b}## since ##\xi^{c}\xi_{c} = 0 = \text{const.}## on ##\Sigma## therefore ##v^{a}\nabla_{a}(\xi^{c}\xi_{c}) = 0 ## for any ##v^{a}## tangent to ##\Sigma## implying that ##\nabla^{b}(\xi^{c}\xi_{c})## is orthogonal to ##\Sigma## and since ##\xi^{b}## is null, we can just take ##\nabla^{b}(\xi^{c}\xi_{c}) = \kappa \xi^{b} ##.

This reduces the expression to ##\xi^{a}\nabla_{a}\xi^{b} = \varsigma \xi^{b}## for an appropriate function ##\varsigma##. We know that we can always re-parametrize this to then take the form ##\xi^{a}\nabla_{a}\xi^{b} = 0##. Hence, at every ##p\in \Sigma##, there exists a unique null geodesic ##x^{a}(\lambda)## passing through ##p## such that ##\xi^{a} = \frac{\mathrm{d} x^{a}}{\mathrm{d} \lambda}## at ##p##.
 
Last edited:
As I said i guess you can think of ##dx^\mu## as ##dx^\mu/d\lambda##. The author seem to be using it as an infinitesimal separation.
 
But what the author wrote makes no sense then. ##df## is the exterior derivative of the smooth function ##f:M\rightarrow \mathbb{R}##. If ##(U,\varphi)## is a smooth chart on ##M## and ##\{dx^{1},...,dx^{n}\}## are the basis one-forms associated with the chart, we can write ##df## as ##df = \nabla_{a}f dx^{a}## but this is a sum over the basis one-forms, not the sum over components of some 4-vector!

"I guess you can think of..." is not really rigorous enough to justify what the author is writing. If possible, could you take a picture or quote the relevant passage?
 
  • #10
From the first post it seems that dx^\mu is the light-like element of a basis of the one-forms on the null surface. This would be consistent with the rest of the argument I think.

Ilm
 
  • #11
WannabeNewton said:
But what the author wrote makes no sense then. ##df## is the exterior derivative of the smooth function ##f:M\rightarrow \mathbb{R}##. If ##(U,\varphi)## is a smooth chart on ##M## and ##\{dx^{1},...,dx^{n}\}## are the basis one-forms associated with the chart, we can write ##df## as ##df = \nabla_{a}f dx^{a}## but this is a sum over the basis one-forms, not the sum over components of some 4-vector!

"I guess you can think of..." is not really rigorous enough to justify what the author is writing. If possible, could you take a picture or quote the relevant passage?

Write ##n_a = \nabla_{a}f##. Then ##n^a## is normal to the level surface ##f\left(p\right) = 0##.
 
  • #12
George Jones said:
Write ##n_a = \nabla_{a}f##. Then ##n^a## is normal to the level surface ##f\left(p\right) = 0##.
That's fine but what exactly is ##dx^{\mu}##? If the author meant to say ##dx^{\mu}## are the basis one-forms and not the components of a 4-vector then saying ##df = 0## amounts to saying ##n_{0}dx^{0} + ... + n_{3}dx^{3} = 0##, where ##\{dx^0,...,dx^3\}## are the basis one-forms, but why would that follow from ##n^{a}## being normal to the null surface? If the author meant something else by ##dx^{\mu}## then I have no idea what, and why he/she writes ##df## as equal to that.
 
  • #13
center o bass said:
along the surface

$$df = n_\mu dx^\mu = 0$$

and this equation is satisfied when the
directions of the 4-vectors ##dx^\mu## and ##n^\mu## coincide.

df as a 1-form is obviously not necessarily zero. The only way I can make sense of this is that the author means that if

ζ = ΔXaa

lies in the null surface, then

df(ζ) = 0

i.e.

ΔXana = 0

Where na = ∂f/∂Xa
 
  • #14
So the authors are using dXa to mean the components ΔXa of the vector ζ which lies in the null surface, and not as basis 1-forms
 
  • #15
dx said:
So the authors are using dXa to mean the components ΔXa of the vector ζ which lies in the null surface, and not as basis 1-forms

Exactly. Maybe I will write some more later, but, right now, I am off to lunch.
 
  • #16
dx said:
So the authors are using dXa to mean the components ΔXa of the vector ζ which lies in the null surface, and not as basis 1-forms
So it should really be written ##df(\zeta) = 0##? Hence not ##df = 0##, since the latter does not follow logically from the fact that ##n## is normal to the null surface. I can't say I'm particularly fond of the notation used by the author then.
 
  • #17
Me neither. I haven't read this particular book, but from the OP's quote it seems likely that the authors are speaking "old tensor."
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 38 ·
2
Replies
38
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
4K
  • · Replies 50 ·
2
Replies
50
Views
4K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 30 ·
2
Replies
30
Views
3K