The most fundamental "particle"

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    Fundamental Particle
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of fundamental particles, specifically questioning whether any such particles exist that possess no charge, mass, volume, or spin. Participants explore the nature of virtual particles and their properties, or lack thereof, in the context of quantum physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the existence of fundamental particles with no properties, suggesting that if such particles existed, they would not interact with the universe.
  • There is a claim that virtual particles can be described as having no properties, leading to confusion about their nature.
  • Others argue that virtual particles do have properties similar to real particles, albeit briefly, due to the uncertainty principle.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the characterization of virtual particles as mathematical fictions, questioning their relevance to physical reality.
  • A participant suggests that if virtual particles are merely mathematical constructs, then the idea of particles with no properties may equate to absolute nothingness.
  • Concerns are raised about the reliability of pop science sources in conveying accurate scientific concepts regarding virtual particles.
  • There is a challenge to the logic that particles popping in and out of existence implies they have no properties, emphasizing that they carry energy and momentum.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the properties of virtual particles and whether any particles can exist without properties. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants express varying levels of understanding about quantum physics, with some identifying as novices. The discussion highlights the complexity of defining properties in the context of virtual particles and the implications of their existence.

Mohd Abdullah
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Hi,

Are there any fundamental "particles" that has no charge (e.g. color charge, electric charge, etc.), mass, volume and spin?
 
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You mean no properties at all? If there were such a thing it would not interact with our universe by any known physics, so we wouldn't know about it.
 
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But aren't virtual particles can be described as having no properties at all?
 
Mohd Abdullah said:
But aren't virtual particles can be described as having no properties at all?

Really? What makes them "virtual" then?

Zz.
 
Mohd Abdullah said:
Hi,

Are there any fundamental "particles" that has no charge (e.g. color charge, electric charge, etc.), mass, volume and spin?

See George Berkeley and "esse est percipi".
 
ZapperZ said:
Really? What makes them "virtual" then?

Zz.

I'm sorry what do you mean by that?

Virtual particles, I think, are the only "particles" that can be described as having no properties at all. "Something" that is akin to nothing.
 
Mohd Abdullah said:
I'm sorry what do you mean by that?

Virtual particles, I think, are the only "particles" that can be described as having no properties at all. "Something" that is akin to nothing.
And what is the sense in which you think that virtual particles are "something" ? Do you mean something physical?
 
Mohd Abdullah said:
I'm sorry what do you mean by that?

Virtual particles, I think, are the only "particles" that can be described as having no properties at all. "Something" that is akin to nothing.

Where do get an idea like this? Did you just make things up?

Zz.
 
Uhmmm
Mohd Abdullah said:
I'm sorry what do you mean by that?

Virtual particles, I think, are the only "particles" that can be described as having no properties at all. "Something" that is akin to nothing.

No, not at all. Virtual particles have properties similar to their real counterparts. Similar because they only exist briefly and the uncertainty principle allows some fuzziness in their properties.
 
  • #10
Cutter Ketch said:
UhmmmNo, not at all. Virtual particles have properties similar to their real counterparts. Similar because they only exist briefly and the uncertainty principle allows some fuzziness in their properties.
You got this from some pop-sci presentation didn't you? (and THEY made it up). There are TONS of threads on this forum about virtual particles. They are a mathematical fiction.

https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/misconceptions-virtual-particles/
 
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  • #11
ZapperZ said:
Where do get an idea like this? Did you just make things up?

Zz.

Sorry, I don't know much about the quantum stuffs. Newbie here. But if you look at most pop science sources, they say virtual particles do pop out from nothing then disappear into nothing after awhile. Sorry if I'm making mistake there.
 
  • #12
phinds said:
You got this from some pop-sci presentation didn't you? (and THEY made it up). There are TONS of threads on this forum about virtual particles. They are a mathematical fiction.

https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/misconceptions-virtual-particles/

If the virtual particles are happen to be just a math fiction, so they're absolutely nothing in the real world. Am I correct?

Is it possible there are "particles" with no properties at all in the context of quantum physics?
 
  • #13
Mohd Abdullah said:
Sorry, I don't know much about the quantum stuffs. Newbie here. But if you look at most pop science sources ...
That's not necessarily a bad thing to do because they are so accessible but do NOT make the mistake of thinking that you are learning any actual science from them.

Mohd Abdullah said:
If the virtual particles are happen to be just a math fiction, so they're absolutely nothing in the real world. Am I correct?
Did you read the link I provided?
Is it possible there are "particles" with no properties at all in the context of quantum physics?
How would we ever know? Since they have no properties, what is it that you think could be measured that would show their existence? You might as well argue that there really are 18 foot high pink unicorns and the fact that no one has ever seen one, or ever WILL see one, does not negate their existence.
 
  • #14
phinds said:
That's not necessarily a bad thing to do because they are so accessible but do NOT make the mistake of thinking that you are learning any actual science from them.

Did you read the link I provided?
How would we ever know? Since they have no properties, what is it that you think could be measured that would show their existence? You might as well argue that there really are 18 foot high pink unicorns and the fact that no one has ever seen one, or ever WILL see one, does not negate their existence.

I just found and read the link you'd shared. So, there is no difference between the virtual particles, "something" with no properties at all and absolute nothing. Thanks for clearing it up.
 
  • #15
Mohd Abdullah said:
Sorry, I don't know much about the quantum stuffs. Newbie here. But if you look at most pop science sources, they say virtual particles do pop out from nothing then disappear into nothing after awhile. Sorry if I'm making mistake there.

You need to be very careful with your sequence of logic. Having particles popping in and out of existence does NOT imply that they have zero properties or characteristics! At the very least, these particles carry energy and momentum. Virtual photons are the "force carrier" (to use a pop-science term) for electromagnetic interactions! So how could they have no properties at all?

Think about this, and think about the "leap" of conclusion that you're making.

Zz.
 
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