The paradox of The Miracle of Existence

  • #26
loseyourname
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
1,749
5
wuliheron said:
In other words, if existence is eternal, the eternal universe came from nothing because it had no primal cause.

If existence is eternal, then it never "came" at all. It always has been.
 
  • #27
1,944
0
loseyourname said:
If existence is eternal, then it never "came" at all. It always has been.

Exactly, eternity came from nothing.

Words only have demonstrable meaning according to their function in a given context. In the case of "Life, the universe, and everything" the context is not specific, quite the opposite, it is so broad as to be undemonstrable. This why words such as "eternity", "God", etc. are easily thrown around when discussing the subject.

As far as I know, the people here have already cited all the common examples. Eternity, God, Primal Cause, and ex nihlio creation are the basic catagories of terms people use when attempting to rationalize the origin or lack of origins for existence. Without exception these all defy logical analysis and observation.
 
  • #28
loseyourname
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
1,749
5
You're missing the point. Eternity doesn't come from nothing. Eternity doesn't come into existence at all. It is eternal. What you are doing here is akin to attempting to find the spatial beginnning of the circumpherence of a circle. There isn't one.
 
  • #29
1,944
0
loseyourname said:
You're missing the point. Eternity doesn't come from nothing. Eternity doesn't come into existence at all. It is eternal. What you are doing here is akin to attempting to find the spatial beginnning of the circumpherence of a circle. There isn't one.

No, you are missing the point. Words only have demonstrable meaning according to their function in a given context. There exists no proven examples of eternity. You could just as easily say humanity is eternal, love is eternal, nature is eternal, or whatever.

We all know what infinity and eternity mean, but the concepts are magical concepts nonetheless that may be useful in mathematics or whatever, but also leads to meaningless paradoxes and has no demonstrable meaning without it referring to the finiite and bounded. Paradoxes and infinities are useful shortcuts for spotting problems, just as my shadow can be useful, but such shadows contain no mass/energy or real information.

Tools

Thirty spokes meet at a nave;
Because of the hole we may use the wheel.
Clay is moulded into a vessel;
Because of the hollow we may use the cup.
Walls are built around a hearth;
Because of the doors we may use the house.
Thus tools come from what exists,
But use from what does not.
 
  • #30
loseyourname
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
1,749
5
Relax, buddy. I didn't say the universe was eternal. But if it is, then it didn't "come" from nothing. It's nice that you're saying we can't demonstrate eternality, but that is beside the point. It has already been postulated. If you deny the possibility of accepting that postulate, then I have no qualm with you. But if you accept it, and you did, then I have a qualm when you say an eternal universe must have come from nothing. That is not the case.
 
  • #31
We can't ever demonstrate nothing or eternity because as soon as we observe nothing it becomes something... Eternity is even more complex because you would never see the end of it, therefore it could never be proven enternity. At the level our thinking/scientific knowlege is currently I don't think that this question is answerable... yet... I enjoy reading this thread though :rofl:
 
  • #32
1,944
0
Yes, eternity can be viewed as both more complex and, yet, equally nonsensical. Like ex nihlio creation from nothing, it is an effect without a cause or a cause without an effect depending upon how you choose to look at it. You can also treat ex nihlio creation as an effect without a cause that eventually leads to the destruction of everything with, of course, nothing left.

The big bang presents an example of this last. If spacetime was created in the big bang there was no time before the event. If the big bang had no seed but was a completely random event from out of the blue, then it was ex nihlio creation. If the universe collapses again and all the matter and energy in universe cancel each other out, then there will be nothing left. Ex nihlio creation leading back to nothing and starting the cycle all over again.

Note that my example is very similar to the idea of eternity. Logically and mathematically or whatever, both eternity and ex nihlio creation inevitably lead to the concept of a singularity, a paradox.
 
  • #33
6
1
I dont think time has a beginning, if it has a beginning then it must have an end which means that universe is not forever.
 
  • #34
loseyourname
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
1,749
5
I honestly doubt we can ever know. Anything postulated ends in paradox. Some things may just be beyond our comprehension.
 
  • #35
1,944
0
loseyourname said:
I honestly doubt we can ever know. Anything postulated ends in paradox. Some things may just be beyond our comprehension.

Exactly, once you break anything down to some kind of "ultimate" paradox and the ineffable become obvious. For example, just what the heck is "pure" energy, pure consciousness, or whatever.

The natural tendency is, of course, to look for reasonable sounding explanations even when none is apparently possible. For example, you could create any number of reasonable sounding explanations for what I have just typed, but what is the real reason? No one can prove any explanation beyond a shadow of a doubt and every possible explanation might at least have some reasonable aspects.

Just as words only have demonstrable meaning according to their function in a given context, concepts themselves apparently only have demonstrable rationalization and reason (ie meaning!) according to their use in a given context.
 

Related Threads on The paradox of The Miracle of Existence

  • Last Post
4
Replies
91
Views
34K
  • Last Post
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • Last Post
Replies
11
Views
2K
R
  • Last Post
2
Replies
30
Views
3K
  • Last Post
Replies
22
Views
6K
  • Last Post
4
Replies
92
Views
11K
  • Last Post
Replies
21
Views
5K
  • Last Post
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • Last Post
Replies
9
Views
2K
Top