The points at which a f is continuous is a G-delta

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter SiddharthM
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Continuous Points
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the characterization of the set of points at which a real-valued function is continuous, specifically exploring whether this set can be expressed as a countable intersection of open sets, a property associated with Borel sets. The conversation includes theoretical reasoning and mathematical arguments related to continuity and open sets.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that the set of points where a function f is continuous can be expressed as the intersection of open sets derived from preimages of open neighborhoods around function values.
  • Another participant challenges this assertion, providing a counterexample where the preimage of an open set is not open if the function is not continuous everywhere.
  • A subsequent reply reformulates the argument, suggesting that continuity can be viewed as a local property, where for every epsilon neighborhood around f(x), there exists a delta neighborhood such that the image of the delta neighborhood is contained within the epsilon neighborhood.
  • Further clarification is provided that if f is continuous at a point, then there exists an open set around that point, leading to the conclusion that the intersection of these open sets contains all continuity points.
  • Another participant emphasizes the need to show that the intersection does not include any discontinuity points, presenting a contradiction argument to support this claim.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of continuity for the preimages of open sets, with some asserting that the original claim can be reformulated while others maintain that the initial assertion is incorrect. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the validity of the initial claim and the implications for discontinuity points.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the assumptions made about the continuity of the function and the definitions of the neighborhoods involved. The discussion also highlights the dependence on the specific properties of the function being analyzed.

SiddharthM
Messages
176
Reaction score
0
Now that I have finished with the 7 chapters of rudin i plan to study Part 1 of royden's real analysis. Here is a problem regarding borel sets

Let f be a real valued function defined for all reals. Prove that the set of points at which f is continuous can be written as a countable intersection of open sets.

set y=f(x)

Consider the family of open sets, N_{1/n} (y) for every real y, call it V_n (y). Taking preimages of these sets will yield some open sets and some not. Let O_n be the union of the collection of preimages that are open, then O_n is open. Put
O=intersection of O_n.

If f is continuous at x the preimage of every V_n(f(x)) is open so it is contained in O_n which means that x is in O. Now if x is in O then x is in O_n for every n. Let e>0, pick a N so that 1/N<e/2. Then x is inside the preimage of some V_N (z). Since this the preimage of this V_N (z) is open, call it N(z), there exists a delta>0 so that if d(x,y)<delta then y is in N(z). Also
|f(x)-f(y)| <\= |f(x)-f(z)|+|f(y)-f(z)|<e

we have shown O is the set of points where f is continuous.

Can someone tell me if I'm missing something, i just feel like i am.

cheers!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
SiddharthM said:
Consider the family of open sets, N_{1/n} (y) for every real y, call it V_n (y).
...
If f is continuous at x the preimage of every V_n(f(x)) is open so it is contained in O_n which means that x is in O.

I had to stop reading at this point because f continuous at x does not imply [tex]f^{-1}(N_e(f(x)))[/tex] is open. For instance, take f(x) = 0 for |x| <= 1, and f(x) = 2 for x > 1. You get [tex]f^{-1}((-1,1)) = [-1,1][/tex]. You are ensured the preimages are open only when f is continuous everywhere.
 
Sorry the assertion was completely false but it can be reformulated so it becomes a local property. If f is continuous at x for every epsilon neighborhood around f(x) (called V_n (x)) there exists a delta neighborhood (called D_n (x)) so that f(D_n(x)) is contained in V_n(x).

Consider the family of V_n(x) for all x in R, when such a D_n (x) exists put it in O_n. So O_n is the union of a family of open sets and is therefore open.
Let O_n be the union of D_n's when they exist as such.

Again O=intersection of O_n

If f is continuous at x then there will always be a neighborhood D_n (x) so that f(D_n(x)) is contained in V_n (x) so that x is in O. Now let e>0 and x in O, there exists a N so that 1/N<e/2. Then x is in some D_n(z) which is a neighborhood of z and is open, so there exists a neighborhood of x contained inside D_n(z). Now for every y in D_n(z) we know that
|f(z)-f(y)|<e/2 so that
|f(x)-f(y)|<|f(x)-f(z)|+|f(z)+f(y)|<e
as long as y is in the neighborhood of x which is contained inside D_n(z).
 
When f is continuous at x, you associate an open [tex]D_n(x) \subset B(x,1/n)[/tex] so that [tex]f(D_n(x)) \subset B(f(x),1/n)[/tex]. Then [tex]O_n[/tex] is the union of all [tex]D_n(x)[/tex], such that f is continuous at x. Clearly, [tex]O = \cap O_n[/tex] contains all the continuity points (because each continuity point by definition is in a [tex]D_n \subset O_n[/tex]), and also O is a countable intersection of open sets.

You still need to show O does not contain a discontinuity point. If a discontinuity point p is in O. Then p is in some [tex]D_n(p_n) \subset B(p_n,1/n)[/tex] for all n (where [tex]f(D_n(p_n)) \subset B(f(p_n),1/n)[/tex]). Then fix e > 0 such that for every d > 0, there is a q such that d(p,q) < d and d(f(p),f(q)) > e. Then for 1/N < e/2, you have p in D_N(p_N), and thus some q in D_N(p_N) such that d(f(p),f(q)) > e, but also [tex]d(f(p),f(q)) \leq d(p,p_N) + d(p_N,q) < e/2 + e/2[/tex], a contradiction.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K