The problem of the mass of a body

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    Body Mass Physcis
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of mass in the context of a spherical body, particularly focusing on the implications of gravitational binding energy and its relationship to total energy and mass as defined in special and general relativity. Participants explore how mass is calculated from density functions and the potential discrepancies arising from binding energy considerations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant argues that calculating mass using the integral of the density function ρ(r) neglects the negative gravitational binding energy, suggesting that the total energy (mass) of the body is actually smaller than the calculated mass M.
  • Another participant questions the mass of the sun and its gravitational binding energy, prompting a discussion on the fractional difference in mass when considering binding energy.
  • A later reply states that if ρ is the mass density, the integral is correct, but it may only represent one aspect of mass, potentially excluding binding energy.
  • Another participant notes that in general relativity, mass is not universally defined across all spacetimes, mentioning specific definitions like Komar mass and ADM mass.
  • One participant asserts that in special relativity, mass is typically defined as E_0/c², where E_0 is the total energy of the body, including all forms of energy, but questions whether the integral of mass density ρ represents total energy.
  • A participant expresses uncertainty about whether the integral of mass density ρ represents total energy or just mass, excluding binding energy.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between mass, energy, and gravitational binding energy, indicating that there is no consensus on how these concepts interact or how mass should be defined in this context.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in definitions of mass in general relativity and the need for appropriate volume elements in integrals in curved spacetime, indicating that the discussion is nuanced and context-dependent.

wLw
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if we have known the density functionρ(r),and then we can calculate the total mass of a spherical body. M=integral of ρ. Now we will say that body has mass M, but I think it is wrong. according to special relativity, mass is equal to energy, so we can also say that body has total energy M,but i think it neglects the gravitational bind energy, which is negative, so the total energy(mass) of that body is smaller than M. and if your solve the Schwa. metric , there is a parameter (here we call Ms), and we define Ms as the mass(or energy) of central body , and I think it includes the energy of binding energy , so Ms is the total energy(mass )of central body, which is not defined by integral ρ, and maybe you can use integral ρ to calculate the mass(energy) of that, but it must larger than Ms. but i have read many papers and books, they all use that integral ρ to represent the mass of body, like a star How is that?、
 
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This is A level so you should be able to do the following:
  • What is the mass of the sun?
  • What is the gravitational binding energy of the sun?
  • What is the fractional difference in mass when you consider gravitational binding?
 
wLw said:
if we have known the density functionρ(r),and then we can calculate the total mass of a spherical body. M=integral of ρ. Now we will say that body has mass M, but I think it is wrong. according to special relativity, mass is equal to energy, so we can also say that body has total energy M,but i think it neglects the gravitational bind energy, which is negative, so the total energy(mass) of that body is smaller than M. and if your solve the Schwa. metric , there is a parameter (here we call Ms), and we define Ms as the mass(or energy) of central body , and I think it includes the energy of binding energy , so Ms is the total energy(mass )of central body, which is not defined by integral ρ, and maybe you can use integral ρ to calculate the mass(energy) of that, but it must larger than Ms. but i have read many papers and books, they all use that integral ρ to represent the mass of body, like a star How is that?、
If ##\rho## is the mass density then the calculation is correct. If it's a measure of only one aspect of mass, rest mass of the particles perhaps, then the integral will be the total of all the rest masses.

Note that in curved spacetime you will also have to use the correct volume element for your integral.
 
wLw said:
I think it includes the energy of binding energy
In general relativity the concept of mass is not defined for all spacetimes. However, for certain specific classes of spacetimes there are a couple of definitions of mass that are used. One is the Komar mass and the other is the ADM mass. See here for an overview of the issues, limitations, and derivations:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_general_relativity
 
In SR, the mass of a body is usually taken to be E_0/c^2, where E_0 is the total energy of all constituents of the body, in the rest frame of the body.
This energy includes all kinetic and potential energy, as well as \rho_m.
 
if I calculate the integral of mass density \rho, it is not the total energy of body, while is just the mass (exclude the binding energy), is it right??
 

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