The set of integers is countable

  • Context: MHB 
  • Thread starter Thread starter evinda
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Integers Set
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the proposition that the set of integers, denoted as $\mathbb{Z}$, is countable. Participants explore the proof of this proposition, focusing on the surjectivity of a defined function and the implications of subtracting natural numbers. The conversation includes mathematical reasoning and clarification of terms.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that $\mathbb{Z}$ is countable and presents a function $f: \omega^2 \to \mathbb{Z}$ defined by $f(\langle n,m \rangle)=m-n$.
  • Another participant questions the assertion that $\mathbb{Z}$ is finite, clarifying that it was a typo.
  • Participants discuss the surjectivity of the function $f$, with one providing examples for integers $l < 0$, $l = 0$, and $l > 0$ to demonstrate that $f$ maps to all integers.
  • There is a request for clarification on how specific values were calculated using the formula for $f$.
  • One participant explains that for $l < 0$, the choice of $m=1$ and $n=1-l$ leads to the result $f(1,1-l) = l$.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the countability of $\mathbb{Z}$ and the surjectivity of the function $f$, but there are questions and clarifications regarding the calculations and definitions involved, indicating some uncertainty in understanding.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions about the specific calculations used to demonstrate surjectivity and the implications of the definitions provided. The discussion reflects a reliance on the definitions of the function and the properties of integers.

evinda
Gold Member
MHB
Messages
3,741
Reaction score
0
Hello! (Smirk)

Proposition
The set $\mathbb{Z}$ of integers is countable.

Proof

$\mathbb{Z}$ is an infinite set since $\{ +n: n \in \omega \} \subset \mathbb{Z}$.

$$+n= [\langle n, 0 \rangle]=\{ \langle k,l \rangle: k+n=l\}$$

We define the function $f: \omega^2 \to \mathbb{Z}$ with $f(\langle n,m \rangle)=m-n$ that is obviously surjective.
Since $\omega^2$ is countable we conclude that $\mathbb{Z}$ is countable.In this case can we subtract two natural numbers since we define $+n= [\langle n, 0 \rangle]=\{ \langle k,l \rangle: k+n=l\}$ ?Also how could we show that $f$ is surjective?
It suffices to show that $\forall y \in m-n, \exists \langle m, n \rangle $ such that $f(\langle m, n \rangle)=m-n$, right?
How could this be shown? (Thinking)
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
Hi evinda,

What do you mean when you say that $\Bbb Z$ is a finite set? As for the surjectivity of $f$, take any integer $l\in \Bbb Z$. If $l < 0$, then $f(1,1 - l) = l$. If $l = 0$, then $f(1,1) = l$. Finally, if $l > 0$, then $f(l+1,1) = l$.
 
Euge said:
What do you mean when you say that $\Bbb Z$ is a finite set?

That was a typo... (Tmi)

Euge said:
As for the surjectivity of $f$, take any integer $l\in \Bbb Z$. If $l < 0$, then $f(1,1 - l) = l$. If $l = 0$, then $f(1,1) = l$. Finally, if $l > 0$, then $f(l+1,1) = l$.

How did you calculate these values? (Thinking)
 
I might be misunderstanding your question, but I calculated the values using the formula for $f$.
 
Euge said:
I might be misunderstanding your question, but I calculated the values using the formula for $f$.

You pick any $l \in \mathbb{Z}$. If $l<0$ why does it hold that $m=1, n=1-l$?
 
Well, if $l < 0$, then $1-l$ is a natural number, and $ f (1,1-l) = 1-(1-l) = l $.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 28 ·
Replies
28
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
5K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K