The Shroud of Turin: An Enigmatic Anomaly

[ideasrule]

You can bash on religion without having to resort to such fallacies. That's like saying the dictionary has been rewritten thousands of times.

True, which is why I don't consider the dictionary to be the ultimate truth.

 

[seycyrus]

True, which is why I don't consider the dictionary to be the ultimate truth.

Well Holeee...you're responding to a statement I made quite some time ago, but ok...Trying to remember what was being discussed back then...

The argument is simply false. To use a false argument to present an opinion is false. Additionally, when one considers that are plenty of others ways to make said opinion, it is lazy.

 

[BigFairy]

and false..

 

[wavering]

The Turin Shroud, how it was made?

The Turin Shroud is about to be exhibited for the first time in ten years in Turin so this would seem an apposite time for a discussion. Radio carbon dating suggests that it is a 14th century forgery but how did the forgers do it?

I have (modest cough) come up with an explanation of how it could have been made

" If you take the body of a man who has been badly tortured in a very hot and humid climate it will be covered with sweat which contains lactate, urea and possibly other organic molecules. If the body were then wrapped in a cloth, that cloth would absorb many of these compounds. If the cloth were then dried in an oven and accidentally overheated, these chemicals would darken."

The full explanation is here:
http://bobcory.com/shroud/

Comments gratefully received
Bob

 

[jreelawg]

The Turin Shroud is about to be exhibited for the first time in ten years in Turin so this would seem an apposite time for a discussion. Radio carbon dating suggests that it is a 14th century forgery but how did the forgers do it?

I have (modest cough) come up with an explanation of how it could have been made

" If you take the body of a man who has been badly tortured in a very hot and humid climate it will be covered with sweat which contains lactate, urea and possibly other organic molecules. If the body were then wrapped in a cloth, that cloth would absorb many of these compounds. If the cloth were then dried in an oven and accidentally overheated, these chemicals would darken."

The full explanation is here:
http://bobcory.com/shroud/

Comments gratefully received
Bob

except that you would expect a negative.

 

[MotoH]

There was just a documentary on the History channel on how the carbon dating was wrong. I didn't have time to watch it though. I guess they found a lot of blood in the shroud than what was expected when it was examined
(who knows though, it could be one of those monsterquest documentaries where they find anything to be true)

 

[mgb_phys]

Radio carbon dating suggests that it is a 14th century forgery

How do you know that false C14 date wasn't itself a miracle intended to test your faith?

" If you take the body of a man who has been badly tortured in a very hot and humid climate it will be covered with sweat which contains lactate, urea and possibly other organic molecules.

You don't have to torture him, there are lots of other things you can do to a well muscled artist's model to get him hot and sweaty and covered in organic molecules - and quite a few renaissance artists were prosecuted for doing them.

 

[jreelawg]

Of course the radio carbon dating was wrong. Miracle carbon ages much slower than normal carbon.

 

[TurtleMeister]

There was just a documentary on the History channel on how the carbon dating was wrong. I didn't have time to watch it though. I guess they found a lot of blood in the shroud than what was expected when it was examined
(who knows though, it could be one of those monsterquest documentaries where they find anything to be true)

Yeah, I watched that also. The error they claimed is that the sample taken was not representative of the whole shroud. They took a sample from a corner that contained both the original fabric and cotton from a later repair. So the test is invalid.
http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/

 

[GeorginaS]

How do you know that false C14 date wasn't itself a miracle intended to test your faith?


You don't have to torture him, there are lots of other things you can do to a well muscled artist's model to get him hot and sweaty and covered in organic molecules - and quite a few renaissance artists were prosecuted for doing them.

Of course the radio carbon dating was wrong. Miracle carbon ages much slower than normal carbon.

Points to both of you for making me laugh out loud and startling my cat and everything.

We already have a thread about this:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=151666&highlight=Shroud+Turin"

 

[Ivan Seeking]

We already have a thread about this:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=151666&highlight=Shroud+Turin"

Threads merged at post 64

 

[hypatia]

I have often wondered if it was the cadaverine gases{their are 30 such known gases} mixing with some type of emollient, used on the corpse, that made the image.

 

[MotoH]

Can clothe really last 2000 years? I am assuming after the apostles died, there was a time where religious items pertaining to Jesus were just scattered about. Couple that with a very improper way to store it for 1500 years, and I don't think it would last that long.

Was there a shroud that wrapped Jesus before he neatly folded it and descended into hell? Yes there was. Is this that same exact shroud? Probably not. But it still represents something very, very important.

It is the idea behind the shroud, and not the authenticity of the shroud that matters. (to me at least)

 

[baywax]

I have often wondered if it was the cadaverine gases{their are 30 such known gases} mixing with some type of emollient, used on the corpse, that made the image.

The key here is the keystone effect that takes place when a fabric is wrapped around a relief or fully three dimensional object. If gasses had gassed off and created some sort of image the image would be distorted almost beyond recognition once the cloth was laid flat... the only way that an image as proportionate could have been projected on the the cloth and kept the depiction of the body in tact is by photographic technique... such as using a camera obscura and a photo sensitive emulsion to capture the features of the cadaver(s).

I put a plural on cadavers because the front image of the figure has turned out to be about 5 inches taller than the back image. This indicates there were two sessions of burning the images in the attempt to show one figure wrapped up in one long piece of cloth.

 

[GeorginaS]

It is the idea behind the shroud, and not the authenticity of the shroud that matters. (to me at least)

What's the idea that's so important? As best I can tell it's somebody trying to perpetrate a fraud on the population at large for propaganda purposes or personal gain at the time or something along those lines.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that the shroud actually is 2,000 years old because they carbon dated a repaired corner. There's absolutely nothing that proves the piece of cloth wrapped any specific individual.

Anyway, if you look back in this thread, someone recently replicated the technique using technologies available at the time the cloth is dated. So.

 

[zomgwtf]

Was there a shroud that wrapped Jesus before he neatly folded it and descended into hell? Yes there was.

Uh... there was?

But it still represents something very, very important.

And what exactly is so important that it is representing? The lengths to which some will go to mislead entire populations of people? I guess that's something very important and something us humans should be proud of.

It is the idea behind the shroud, and not the authenticity of the shroud that matters. (to me at least)

Interesting... so the idea to mislead, purposely, an entire population of people is more important than it actually being the real shroud which covered Jesus? I think that's bogus.

 

[MotoH]

I guess you have to understand the significance of Jesus dying in order to understand the idea behind the shroud.

The shroud of turin represents the idea of Jesus being wrapped in a clothe when he was taken off of the cross and placed in his tomb.

 

[zomgwtf]

I guess you have to understand the significance of Jesus dying in order to understand the idea behind the shroud.

I guess you have to understand this is a forgery so the story of Jesus dying is only significant in the 'it's going to fool the most people' aspect.

 

[TurtleMeister]

There's also the theory that the image on the shroud was created photographically by Leonardo Da Vinci.

 

[GeorginaS]

I guess you have to understand the significance of Jesus dying in order to understand the idea behind the shroud.

The shroud of turin represents the idea of Jesus being wrapped in a clothe when he was taken off of the cross and placed in his tomb.

What makes you think I don't understand the theological relevance of the story of Jesus dying?

That someone created a forgery for either personal gain or try to add some credence to the story is lying on behalf of Jesus. That's blasphemy, is it not?

 

[baywax]

I guess you have to understand this is a forgery so the story of Jesus dying is only significant in the 'it's going to fool the most people' aspect.

My theory is that Leonardo Da Vinci created the hoax as payback to the church for indiscretions that had taken place between the two, earlier on in Da Vinci's life (during which the man invented the camera obscura)

It would be an interesting study to aggressively investigate the origins of the story of the whole execution on the cross thing and who died for what cause etc...

There are two main secular beliefs that I can think of right now.

One: is that the person on the cross was a stand in and was deceptively identified as Jesus by Judas to protect what was the leader of a large revolt against Roman ideology.

Two: the story of a gentle and forgiving Jesus is a cover story masking the actual life of Spartacus whose own revolution came very close to ending Roman ideology. In both cases the story contains reference to execution by crucifixion.

 

[zomgwtf]

My theory is that Leonardo Da Vinci created the hoax as payback to the church for indiscretions that had taken place between the two, earlier on in Da Vinci's life (during which the man invented the camera obscura)

It would be an interesting study to aggressively investigate the origins of the story of the whole execution on the cross thing and who died for what cause etc...

There are two main secular beliefs that I can think of right now.

One: is that the person on the cross was a stand in and was deceptively identified as Jesus by Judas to protect what was the leader of a large revolt against Roman ideology.

Two: the story of a gentle and forgiving Jesus is a cover story masking the actual life of Spartacus whose own revolution came very close to ending Roman ideology. In both cases the story contains reference to execution by crucifixion.

The part about Da vinci was new information I've never heard about before. Thanks, do you have any sources for that or is it just a personal hunch I'd be interested in reading that further.

As for the two lines of beliefs, I haven't looked too deeply into them but I've heard of both stories, and others.

 

[baywax]

The part about Da vinci was new information I've never heard about before. Thanks, do you have any sources for that or is it just a personal hunch I'd be interested in reading that further.

As for the two lines of beliefs, I haven't looked too deeply into them but I've heard of both stories, and others.

There are websites along the same lines (da Vinci hoaxing the church with the shroud)... but CSI hasn't weighed in on the case...

Here are some of the evidences pointing in that direction...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/5706640/Turin-Shroud-is-face-of-Leonardo-da-Vinci.html

and...

THE COMMISSION FOR THE SHROUD

There is evidence of Leonardo receiving a commission that could have been for the Shroud, by a powerful family under the name of the ‘House of Savoy’ in Sardinia, Italy. When Leonardo received the commission for the Shroud he was expected to create an advanced painting on the cloth of linen. However, Leonardo's method of genius demanded of him to push the frontier of his abilities and so (instead of creating a Da Vinci painting) he instead devised and applied the method of instilling a negative photograph on the shroud that subtly projected an image of Jesus.

Leonardo had previously worked for a member of the House of Savoy by the name of Giuliano de Medici, which he had become friends with. It is believed that Leonardo received the commission in 1492 at the age of 40 to create specifically a Da Vinci painting on the shroud. Upon its completion, the family’s expectations were not met and they instead received an extremely faint ghost figure on the cloth. The virtues and subtly of the work passed them by! There is said to be a record of Leonardo being refused payment for a commission by the family.

http://www.leonardo-da-vinci-biography.com/da-vinci-invention-turin-shroud.html

 

[MotoH]

The shroud was transferred for its safety to the Benedictine sanctuary of Montevergine in Avellino, in the southern Campania region of Italy in 1939 and was only transferred to Turin in 1946.

The current director of the library at the abbey, Father Andrea Cardin, said the reason behind the move was because Hitler was "obsessed" with the sacred relic.

Both the Vatican and the Italian royal family, the Savoys, who were the guardians and owners of the shroud, feared that the German leader, who had an interest in the esoteric, might try to steal the linen cloth.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7560669/Hitler-wanted-to-steal-Turin-Shroud.html"

Interesting!

 

[lisab]

It's on display again - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8613258.stm" .

Honestly, I've seen better images of Jesus on toast.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Ok... weird... I'm listening to 'Death Masks' by Jim Butcher (fun, corny urban fantasy, hence the audiobook as background noise)... which concerns the theft of the shroud of Turin.

There are three "Knights of The Cross", each with a sword that may or may not have been made with one of the nails from 'the crucifixtion'. One of them is an atheist. I like that.

Anyway, I wonder why the mystery is still alive?! Could it be... that The Vatican believes in faith... or that doubt+faith=revenue? I wonder...

@Lisab: Agreed, but don't you regret eating that toast, now that a sandwich sold for 30,000 USD?! Actually, that makes me want to eat toast with cyanide, but that's humanity for you.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Anyway, I wonder why the mystery is still alive?! Could it be... that The Vatican believes in faith... or that doubt+faith=revenue? I wonder...

IIRC, The Catholic Church has never claimed that the shroud is authentic.

Maybe this has already been adressed but there were two objections to the carbon dating: First, the shroud had been damaged in a fire. The section tested was a section that had been repaired [allgedly replaced] in the 1500s or 1600s. Next, there was an enzyme on the material that could have also affected the results. Even the scientist who invented carbon dating admitted that this was a possible problem.

Have these two issues been resolved or not?

 

[Dav333]

I watched this Doco & was not convinced. But also find it hard to believe anyone cold fabricate this. Even in today's age?

 

[CEL]

I watched this Doco & was not convinced. But also find it hard to believe anyone cold fabricate this. Even in today's age?

Some time ago I saw a documentary with a researcher who painted a statue of a bearded man with oil and wrapped it with a shroud. The oil stained the cloth, providing an image of the statue.
This is perfectly compatible with medieval technology.

 

[Frame Dragger]

IIRC, The Catholic Church has never claimed that the shroud is authentic.

Maybe this has already been adressed but there were two objections to the carbon dating: First, the shroud had been damaged in a fire. The section tested was a section that had been repaired [allgedly replaced] in the 1500s or 1600s. Next, there was an enzyme on the material that could have also affected the results. Even the scientist who invented carbon dating admitted that this was a possible problem.

Have these two issues been resolved or not?

My point was precisely that confirmation is not in their best interests, as they deal in doubt and faith, not certainties. The issue isn't dating the shroud, unless you already believe it COULD be a burial cloth, COULD have an "image" of christ on it, etc...

As CEL points out, there have been more than one (successful) attempts to recreate a "shroud of turin" using medieval technology, and it's incredibly easy using oils, mild acids (lemon juice...) and more. Dating it would be interesting, but it would also mean that the people who believe in it, would be disabused of that notion BY the church. Doubt works for everyone here, at least, it works if you're not hoofing it to see the shroud.