The true TFC for surface integrals

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the fundamental theorem of calculus (FTC) as it applies to surface integrals, particularly in the context of vector calculus and geometric algebra. Participants explore the formulation of the FTC for surface integrals and the implications of defining the surface element.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes an analogy between the FTC for line integrals and surface integrals, suggesting that the integral of the curl of a vector field over a surface relates to the values of the vector field at the boundaries of that surface.
  • The same participant questions the nature of the surface element, ##\vec{S}##, arguing that it cannot simply be a vector and suggesting it may need to be represented as a bivector or tensor to account for its bidimensional nature.
  • Another participant expresses interest in vector calculus from a geometric algebra perspective and mentions a book that discusses the fundamental theorem of calculus in that context.
  • A later reply challenges the assertion that the book does not cover the FTC for surface integrals, pointing to a specific chapter that appears to address the topic extensively.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the formulation of the FTC for surface integrals and the interpretation of the surface element. There is no consensus on these points, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not reached agreement on the geometric interpretation of the proposed surface integral or the appropriate mathematical representation of the surface element.

Jhenrique
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The true FTC for surface integrals

Let's say that ##\vec{f}## is an exact one-form, so we have that ##\vec{f}=\vec{\nabla}f##, and ##\vec{F}## is an exact two-form, so we have that ##\vec{F}=\vec{\nabla}\times \vec{f}##.

The fundamental theorem of calculus for line integral says that: \int_{\vec{s}_0}^{\vec{s}_1}\vec{\nabla}f\cdot d\vec{s}=f(\vec{s}_1)-f(\vec{s}_0)
Thus, by analogy, how would be the FTC for surface integral? I think that would be something more or less like:
\iint_{\vec{S}_0}^{\vec{S}_1}\vec{\nabla}\times \vec{f}\cdot d^2\vec{S}=\vec{f}(\vec{S}_1)-\vec{f}(\vec{S}_0)
But, if my deduction is correct, so what is ##\vec{S}##? Well, ##\vec{S}## can't be a vector because a vector have two or three scalar components and your variation, ##\vec{s}_1 - \vec{s}_0## describe a unidimensional manifold (a curve). As we want that the variation of ##\vec{S}## represents a bidimensional manifold (a surface), so is necessary that your components be 2 vectors because two points (two vectors) varying simultaneously describe a surface. This ideia is consistent with the d² of double integral above, because ##\frac{df(x)}{dx} = \frac{f(x_1) - f(x_0)}{dx}##, ##\frac{df(x,y)}{dx} = \frac{f(x_1,y) - f(x_0,y)}{dx}##, ##\frac{d^2f(x,y)}{dxdy} = \frac{f(x_1, y_1) - f(x_0, y_0)}{dxdy}##, so ##d^2 f(x,y) = f(x_1, y_1)-f(x_0, y_0)##. If ##\vec{S}## represents a set of vectors, so ##\vec{S} = (\vec{s}, \vec{t})##. The integral of surface becomes: \iint \limits_{\vec{s}_0\vec{t}_0}^{\vec{s}_1\vec{t}_1}\vec{\nabla}\times \vec{F}\cdot d^2\vec{S}=\vec{F}(\vec{s}_1,\vec{t}_1)-\vec{F}(\vec{s}_0,\vec{t}_0) If all this ideia is correct, thus we have a lot of questions! 1st, which is the geometric interpretation for this integral? You can't give the same geometric interpretation as in: \oint\!\! \oint_{S} \vec{F}\cdot d^2\vec{S} = \iiint_{V} \vec{\nabla}\times \vec{F}d^3V because this interpretation is the analogous to \oint_{s} \vec{f}\cdot d\vec{s} = \iint_{S} \vec{\nabla}\cdot \vec{f}\cdot d^2\vec{S} and not represents the FTC.

2nd place, what hell is actually ##\vec{S}## ? This isn't a vector! Should be a bivector or a tensor.

I think that all is quite something. What you think about?
 
Last edited:
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You seem very interested in vector calculus from a Geometric Algebra perspective.

So am I! Fortunately, a helpful book was just released on the subject. I'm reading through it now.
http://faculty.luther.edu/~macdonal/vagc/

This book promises to show you what the fundamental theorem of calculus looks like in geometric algebra, though I'm not that far in it. So far it's very interesting though!
 
Happens that this book don't talk about the fundamental theorem of calculus for surface integral, btw, no one coment about this!
 
Are you sure?

Chapter 10 is called The Fundamental Theorem of Calculus. Looks to me like it discusses surface integrals rather extensively.
 

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