News The Ultimate Loss of Civil Liberties: Innocent Man Shot Dead in UK

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The discussion centers around the police shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, a Brazilian man mistakenly identified as a terrorist following recent bomb attacks in London. His family expressed outrage, emphasizing that there was no reason to suspect him of terrorism. The police admitted regret over the incident, describing it as a tragedy. Participants in the discussion debated the justification for the use of deadly force, with some arguing that the police acted out of panic and fear, while others suggested that the circumstances—such as de Menezes wearing a heavy coat in warm weather and fleeing from plainclothes officers—raised suspicions. Eyewitness accounts described the chaotic scene, where de Menezes was pinned down and shot multiple times. The conversation highlighted concerns about police protocols in high-stress situations and the implications for civil liberties, questioning whether the police's actions were warranted given the context of recent terrorist threats. Participants emphasized the need for a thorough investigation into the incident and the broader implications for public safety and police conduct.
  • #331
Thanks Alexandra and El Hombre, that's helpful. You've left me with a lot to think about.
 
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  • #332
My guess is that with security so tight on the underground and London in general if there is another attack it will be in another of England's major cities such as Manchester or Birmingham. This is the methodology the IRA used to follow during their terrorist bombing campaigns in England.
 
  • #333
El Hombre Invisible said:
You could heighten the security in tube stations, etc - post armed police at each station. This would probably deter terrorism, but only if it succeeds in creating an atmosphere of fear and caution, much like American airports where you really do believe that if you twitch you might be shot. Personally, if I wanted that I'd live in America.

Hey, makes me think of it: this WAS maybe the real mission of these policemen. Order from above: "pick out at random a guy, blow his brains out, and tell that it was his fault because he ran ; we're pretty sure next time, people will be very cautious not to arouse suspicion ; this will facilitate our spotting of bombers next time around. That's all. Good luck, boys."
 
  • #334
well done vanesch, did you work that out all on your own?
 
  • #335
Andy said:
well done vanesch, did you work that out all on your own?

I have some experience in the domain, having been one of OBL's advisers. I was the one who got him hire Rumsfeld. First he was reluctant, but now he admits it's the best investment Al Quaida ever made. Over Blair (Ian, that is), we got an argument, which ended my work for them. I was seriously opposed in taking him on the team, but I wasn't followed. So I left.

:wink:
 
  • #336
vanesch said:
I was seriously opposed in taking him on the team, but I wasn't followed. So I left.

:wink:
I hope you emptied your desk and brought your rucksack home with you. :biggrin:
 
  • #337
Art said:
I hope you emptied your desk and brought your rucksack home with you. :biggrin:
Lucky he wasn't wearing a padded jacket.
 
  • #338
And in the continuing saga of he said/she said:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050728/140/foepc.html
Sky News said:
Thursday July 28, 10:17 PM


Shot Man's Visa Had Expired Two Years Ago

The student visa of the Brazilian man shot dead by anti-terror police last week expired two years ago, it has emerged.Authorities have been trying to work out why Jean Charles de Menezes ran away from police when he was challenged at Stockwell Tube station.A spokeswoman for the Home Office also revealed that Mr de Menezes had a stamp in his passport apparently granting him indefinite leave to remain in the UK.

But the stamp was "not one that was in use by the Immigration and Nationality Directorate".

The carefully-worded statement appeared to imply that the stamp had been a forgery.
 
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  • #339
That Entire article can be summed up with "We still have no confirmation on anything" and then it just repeats the hearsay already blown all over the media.
 
  • #340
The Smoking Man said:
Shot Man's Visa Had Expired Two Years Ago

Damn, my old residence card in France expired also 1 year ago.
(ok, in the mean time I got a new one, do we have to add that ?)
:biggrin:
 
  • #341
I've got three years left on my German Permit and 1.5 months on my Chinese.

I think I'll go and work in Lichtenstein.

I want to see how many I can have open at one time.
 
  • #342
Where are you from again smokey?
 
  • #343
Andy said:
Completely of subject but are you spanish el hombre?
No, but neither was El Hombre Invisible.
 
  • #344
Art said:
My guess is that with security so tight on the underground and London in general if there is another attack it will be in another of England's major cities such as Manchester or Birmingham. This is the methodology the IRA used to follow during their terrorist bombing campaigns in England.
I agree. The truth is, it takes many police from one single country to catch one terrorist from one of many countries. We cannot possibly cover the ground necessary to deter terrorism everywhere, which is why IMO we need to tackle it with intelligence alone. I cannot think of a viable scenario in which shoot-to-kill is a reasonable tactic.
 
  • #345
vanesch said:
Hey, makes me think of it: this WAS maybe the real mission of these policemen. Order from above: "pick out at random a guy, blow his brains out, and tell that it was his fault because he ran ; we're pretty sure next time, people will be very cautious not to arouse suspicion ; this will facilitate our spotting of bombers next time around. That's all. Good luck, boys."
Man... you're dark.
 
  • #346
vanesch said:
Damn, my old residence card in France expired also 1 year ago.
(ok, in the mean time I got a new one, do we have to add that ?)
:biggrin:
I was going to point this out. The fact that his student Visa expired two years is not new information - even relatives of de Menezes confirmed that much. The question was whether his new application had been approved. de Menezes relatives said it was about two months ago. It is odd that this statement only specifies that his old Visa had expired and mentions nothing of any new application, even if only to deny it existed or was approved. Don't want to read too much into that though. There's a war of misinformation at the moment and both sides are losing.
 
  • #347
It is quite indicative that this type of info gets headlines:

It is a disgusting, but very predictable attempt to "blacken" De Menzes' character (digging up as much disreputable info on him as possible), so that the execution of him will seem to be justified anyway.

We've seen this type of "damage control" operations before, undoubtedly, we'll see it again..
 
  • #348
I haven't got time to read through the entirity of this thread so I applogise if I go over old ground.

Just a few points:

Has anyone who's commenting in this thread actually been in a combat situation? By that I mean in a situation in which you could die at any time?

If a suspect (there must be some reason they were trailing him) is always presumed innocent at what time do they become guilty? After they've detonated?

IMO there is a greater possibility that the group that killed the suspect was SF rather than police. Our SF have a different set of priorities than our police.

Also, if the group were trailing him they would probably be in constant contact with a command centre relaying information. It is possible that it was them that ordered the group to take the suspect down.

The difference between the two factions here is that those who are against the policy can understand its social implications even without having personally known this particular victim, while those who argue that the policy is ok can only see things from a personal point of view
This is wrong and said out of bias. In these circumstances I can understand the need for a STK policy and not just in a 'personal point of view' but from a strategic analysis point of view. From a military point of view. From a pyschological point of view.

I sympathise with the victim and yes, if I had known Jean Charles de Menezes personally I would feel a LOT stronger about this, that is only natural. It doesn't mean I would be right in what I was thinking though. Emotions are very rarely helpful to thinking clearly.

I expect that the STK policy will remain in force until the terrorist threat has diminished somewhat by either killing any active cells (as well as anyone supporting those cells) or terrorising the terrorist into looking elsewhere to ply their trade.

We, as citizens of a western society, have the luxery of questioning our superiors but we should never forget that we don't have to make hard decisions everyday that effect the lives of thousands upon thousands of people. We simpily have to concentrate on ourselves and our families well-being and it very easy to take a moral highground when you will never be put a position in which you have to make such lose-lose decisions that costs people lives.
 
  • #349
IMO there is a greater possibility that the group that killed the suspect was SF rather than police.

Special Forces are way more clean than that! If he was a SF hit, we wouldn't know about it, don't remeber all the Irish who "vanished" into thin air during the IRA campaigns?
 
  • #350
It is criminally amateurish to allow a terrorist suspect alive into a railway station filled by civilians.
There are only two options:
1) Either accept that the ones in the operation were inept amateurs who should be dismissed immmediately from the forces
2) That they were more thrilled at chasing the fellow than protecting the general public, in which case they also should be dismissed summarily.
 
  • #351
Special Forces are way more clean than that! If he was a SF hit, we wouldn't know about it, don't remeber all the Irish who "vanished" into thin air during the IRA campaigns?
I also remember the Gibraltar shootings.

It is criminally amateurish to allow a terrorist suspect alive into a railway station filled by civilians.
There are only two options:
1) Either accept that the ones in the operation were inept amateurs who should be dismissed immmediately from the forces
2) That they were more thrilled at chasing the fellow than protecting the general public, in which case they also should be dismissed summarily.
This is easy to say and very shallow :frown:

Perhaps if we were all gifted with hindsight we would have done things differently.

If the victim had turned out to be a terrorist there'd be a different tune playing.
 
  • #352
There were never any good reasons to regard him as a terrorist.
 
  • #353
There were never any good reasons to regard him as a terrorist.
I can't comment on that. All I've got to go on is the press and public statements and I never trust any of them without some sort of collaboration from a neutral source.
 
  • #354
Yes you do; don't go about lying. You have gobbled up the version given by the police and believes that to be true.
 
  • #355
Daminc said:
If the victim had turned out to be a terrorist there'd be a different tune playing.

If the victim had turned out to be a terrorist he has been detonated plenty of time before he gets shot
 
  • #356
There were never any good reasons to regard him as a terrorist.

Well, I am a good friend of Daminc, and I'm well versed in "security issues".

After an attack like that, against our civilian transport system, you have to think on your feet. If someone was followed for security reasons (who had false documentation) and was stopped and challenged by armed security forces, and then tried to evade them by running directly towards the underground that was previously attacked, then you HAVE to assume that that person is a significant threat to security and should be dealt with accordingly.

They were far from "sloppy" in the way that they dealt with that person, if you consider that IF he had a bomb, they WOULD have stopped him from detonating it.
 
  • #357
That was my mate Si :)
 
  • #358
What just happened?
 
  • #359
Daminc said:
Well, I am a good friend of Daminc, and I'm well versed in "security issues".

After an attack like that, against our civilian transport system, you have to think on your feet.
Which is what did not happen here.
If someone was followed for security reasons
Who should have been stopped way before, precisely due to security reasons.
(who had false documentation)
Yes, I perfectly understand you regard this as adequate reason for execution.
challenged by armed security forces
There is no evidence that he ever was challenged.

They were far from "sloppy" in the way that they dealt with that person, if you consider that IF he had a bomb, they WOULD have stopped him from detonating it.
If he had had a bomb, he would have detonated it way before within the railway station where he simply should not have let him in; there were more than enough officers and time to block his entrance, if their goal had been to protect the general public.
It wasn't, their goal was to experience the thrill of the chase, and gain a promotion.
 
  • #360
Yes you do; don't go about lying. You have gobbled up the version given by the police and believes that to be true.
Why are you calling me a liar? I meant exactly what I said. I was in the military once and I've trained in simulations of similar events. Have you had any professional experience?

If the victim had turned out to be a terrorist he has been detonated plenty of time before he gets shot
Maybe, maybe not. Looking from a pursuers point of view it may have seen like he is trying to get to a designated target point. Also, fear does strange things to a persons thinking. A terrorist might have panicedand ran for it. Personally if an armed sucurity force challenged me I would stick my hands up and do exactly what they told me to do...wouldn't you? Then again if I'd have something to hide I might run.
 

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