News The Ultimate Loss of Civil Liberties: Innocent Man Shot Dead in UK

[The Smoking Man]

He was not an innocent man... (I have no proof, but)... law abiding citizens do not run from authority. I'm not saying that he should've been shot, but given the current circumstances... I can understand. This will be a lesson to people who want to run from the law.

Disclaimer: I can say what I say because I have been on the receiving end of police brutality and racial profiling. I don't fully agree with it, but in all situations, I understood what the reasons were. I never ran from the police because I knew I had nothing to hide. Anyone, especially criminal minds, should know better than to run from authorities while innocent.

Funny thing about subways ... People seem to run to catch trains too.

Funny that.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Thought I'd save you all the trouble:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18082005/140/sir-ian-hits-back-shooting-allegations.html

Thursday August 18, 11:39 PM


Sir Ian Hits Back At Shooting Allegations

Scotland Yard chief Sir Ian Blair has hit back at allegations of a cover up over the killing of Jean Charles de Menezes at Stockwell Tube station.Sir Ian has dismissed claims that he had tried to block an independent inquiry into the death of the innocent Brazilian electrician.Shortly after he made his comments, Sky News' Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt revealed that a member of the Independent Police Complaints Commission's (IPCC) secretarial staff has been suspended over the leaking of a report.

The report highlighted a series of alleged differences in the shooting compared to the details that had previously emerged.

Mr de Menezes was at first thought to have aroused suspicion by wearing a heavy padded coat, vaulting ticket barriers, and fleeing police.

It now appears that he was wearing a light denim jacket and calmly walked into Stockwell station, even picking up a free newspaper before sitting down on the Tube train, where he was shot.

He was hit in the head at point blank range by seven bullets on a train in south London last month.

Earlier, the IPCC claimed Scotland Yard had "initially resisted" it taking on the investigation into the shooting.

This had delayed the inquiry, the watchdog has claimed.

It was also claimed that one of the senior officers at the centre of the operation had ordered him to be taken alive.

Commander Cressida Dick allegedly instructed officers to "detain" him minutes before he was shot, according to the Daily Mirror.

But Sir Ian told the Evening Standard: "These allegations strike to the heart of the integrity of the police and integrity of the Met and I fundamentally reject them. There is no cover-up."

Lawyers for the dead man's family have met investigators from the IPCC.

They described the shooting as a "catalogue of disasters" and blunders in the police operation.

One of the family's lawyers, Harriet Wistrich, said it was "looking more and more" as though there was a "deliberate cover-up and a prevention of the IPCC inquiry".

One, Gareth Peirce, said: "One of the things we asked the IPCC to investigate is, Are there lies that have been told? Who told them?"

 

[outsider]

Funny thing about subways ... People seem to run to catch trains too.

Funny that.

You make a good point... and according to the above post, I stand corrected with the new information.

Due to the information provided prior, I was lead to believe that he was running from authority. Even if a person is late and had to catch a train, if the police request that the person should halt, they should not run. Late or not, running makes you look guilty.

Given the new info from yahoo uk, I would like to retract my previous comment and condemn the police in question with the following:

You do not open fire on an unarmed man who is stationary.

 

[arildno]

Neither do you shoot a man who never resisted you, to whom you never bothered to identify yourself properly, and that you've already pinned down and immobilized.
THAT is what happened here, according to surveillance officer "Hotel3".

 

[outsider]

Neither do you shoot a man who never resisted you, to whom you never bothered to identify yourself properly, and that you've already pinned down and immobilized.
THAT is what happened here, according to surveillance officer "Hotel3".

yeah...they really screwed up

 

[Daminc]

Still no mention about the identity of the shooting team.

 

[arildno]

Still no mention about the identity of the shooting team.

I think that identity neither will nor SHOULD come forth in the public, unless the case is deemed so grave that criminal charges are launched against them.

The same holds for the members of the surveillance team.

It IS, in my opinion, absolutely necessary that in general, certain key operatives should remain anonymous and unkown to the general public.
This is, I believe, crucial if they are to
a) Be able to do their work properly
b) have some reasonable protection for themselves and their families

Apart from being members of a SO19 team, I'm not sure if we as a public is entitled to know anything more of their personal identities.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I think that identity neither will nor SHOULD come forth in the public, unless the case is deemed so grave that criminal charges are launched against them.

The same holds for the members of the surveillance team.

It IS, in my opinion, absolutely necessary that in general, certain key operatives should remain anonymous and unkown to the general public.
This is, I believe, crucial if they are to
a) Be able to do their work properly
b) have some reasonable protection for themselves and their families

Apart from being members of a SO19 team, I'm not sure if we as a public is entitled to know anything more of their personal identities.

Well, it shouldn't matter in a few days.

If what seems to be forming as the truth, he won't be employed with them for much longer as anything except a traffic cop.

If he is, Sir Ian Blair should resign.

When a guy unloads half a clip into a seated man offering no resistance...

 

[arildno]

Mr. Ian Blair should resign anyway, in my opinion.
The lies told were devious, and are inexcusable.
Take for example the poisonous comment "He wore unsuitable clothes in regards to the weather conditions"
Unsuitable?
The sole function of that word is to cast suspicion onto De Menezes, it CANNOT be excused as merely a regrettable lapse of observational skills.
It was a deliberate lie, aimed at passing off De Menezes death as a tragic mistake, for whom De Menezes, though guiltless, should bear most of the blame.

That this lie, and other rhetorical devices were effective, can be seen as how quickly the Blairs and their gang were able to stifle the immediate outcry.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

I think this forum has a lot of far-eastern users, who have been obviouslly used to living in condition that instigate a deep distrust of everything "Official", the "Party-Line" cover-ups must be an everyday experience.

Not so in the UK I am sorry to say!..but this is not to say that there has not been any great unjustice, or cover-ups to many, I am sure it has occured, but under these tragic circumstances, I tend to think there were extreme stressfull circumstances, that had a direct baring on the Tragic Killing.

Except most of the people on this thread are either in, from or have lived in the UK, so that 'deep distrust' stems from here. Sorry to disappoint you, but you can't blame everything on foreigners, however attractive it is to you.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

He was not an innocent man... (I have no proof, but)... law abiding citizens do not run from authority. I'm not saying that he should've been shot, but given the current circumstances... I can understand. This will be a lesson to people who want to run from the law.

Disclaimer: I can say what I say because I have been on the receiving end of police brutality and racial profiling. I don't fully agree with it, but in all situations, I understood what the reasons were. I never ran from the police because I knew I had nothing to hide. Anyone, especially criminal minds, should know better than to run from authorities while innocent.

Are you totally insane? When did he run from authority? The moment he was aware of them, he walked towards them!

 

[outsider]

Are you totally insane? When did he run from authority? The moment he was aware of them, he walked towards them!

read the follow ups hombre.. I'm not insane... i just took what i read and responded... i know you are passionate about this thing so i'll forgive you for jumping the gun... I don't think it was right that he was killed.

 

[Daminc]

I think that identity neither will nor SHOULD come forth in the public, unless the case is deemed so grave that criminal charges are launched against them.

Horray, another thing we agree on

With regards to 'Identity', I was referring to what Unit they belonged to. It is still possible that the shooters were SAS which would make them military NOT police and that will complicate matters a whole lot more.

 

[Art]

Horray, another thing we agree on

With regards to 'Identity', I was referring to what Unit they belonged to. It is still possible that the shooters were SAS which would make them military NOT police and that will complicate matters a whole lot more.

It's possible but I can't see what the Met gains by claiming they were members of their SO19 group if in fact they were not?? Talking of which SO19 is a relatively small group of 80 officers so I wonder if any of the ones involved in this case were also involved in shooting dead the man who had a table leg in a bag?

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

read the follow ups hombre.. I'm not insane... i just took what i read and responded... i know you are passionate about this thing so i'll forgive you for jumping the gun... I don't think it was right that he was killed.

Yeah, I should read from the bottom up, huh. Thanks for your... forgiveness.

 

[The Smoking Man]

And Again:

Friday August 19, 12:37 PM


Shooting: Brazilians Send Team To London

A Brazilian investigation team is being sent to London to look into the fatal shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes.The 27-year-old electrician was shot dead by anti-terrorist police at Stockwell Tube station in south London after being mistaken for a suicide bomb suspect.

The Brazilian Government's team will arrive in London next week and be led by the country's Deputy Attorney General.

He will speak directly with police officers and witnesses here.

The young Brazilian's family is angry that the Metropolitan Police has done nothing to correct the widely publicised impression that Mr de Menezes' demeanor and mode of dress contributed to his death.

His cousin Alessando Pereira, 25, held a news conference outside the tube station in the wake of the assertion by Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair that he has done nothing to warrant his resignation.

Mr Pereira said: "The police know Jean was innocent and yet they let my family suffer, they let us suffer, Ian Blair let us suffer.

"For three weeks we have had to listen to lie after lie about Jean and how he was killed."

The Independent Police Complaints Commission has still to officially confirm a Sky News report that a clerk at the commission has been suspended on suspicion of leaking documents on the shooting to the media.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/19082005/140/shooting-brazilians-send-team-london.html

Sombody's p!ssed.

 

[Daminc]

and yet they let my family suffer, they let us suffer, Ian Blair let us suffer.

I don't want to sound callus or anything but is there any reason why Ian Blair should care about how the family feels?

Personally, I feel a bit sympathetic towards them but that's about it. Unlawful, unnessessary, accidental and suicidal deaths occur all the time, all over the world and if you start getting emotional about it them there's a chance you'll end up not being able to function any more.

 

[Smurf]

Ian Blair has a responsibility for the safety of those under his jurisdiction. When an innocent man get's killed by police officers he better damn well care, or resign because he is no longer capable of serving that position if he does not.

 

[arildno]

But we generally don't do that by propagating lies as to how the family member died, do we?
Blair was perfectly well aware of that the image he forged for the public&the immediate family was erronous; in particular, that De Menezes himself at any point had resisted the police (and, hence, probably with a not-so clean conscience).
Yet, he chose to perpetuate that image of their son, in total disregard of their feelings.
That is not something we in general do.


A decent person would not have acted in the way Ian Blair provably have acted.

 

[Daminc]

How many "leaders of men" could be classed as 'decent'?

Whether in the Force, Politics or Business the leaders are not know to be 'decent' and they are not penelised for it.

 

[Smurf]

So? What's your point?

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

I don't want to sound callus or anything but is there any reason why Ian Blair should care about how the family feels?

Apparently not, hence he spread and allowed the spreading of lies to make it sound like Menezes had it coming. I'm sure he'd deem you an apt replacement, should calls for his resignation bear fruit.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

How many "leaders of men" could be classed as 'decent'?

Whether in the Force, Politics or Business the leaders are not know to be 'decent' and they are not penelised for it.

Why did you expend so much effort in exonerating them, then?

 

[outsider]

Yeah, I should read from the bottom up, huh. Thanks for your... forgiveness.

haha.. that's ok I do it myself...

 

[Art]

I see Sky News are having an on-line poll as to whether or not Sir Ian Blair should resign. It's running at 66% no at the moment. The police must be out voting in 'force'

 

[The Smoking Man]

I see Sky News are having an on-line poll as to whether or not Sir Ian Blair should resign. It's running at 66% no at the moment. The police must be out voting in 'force'

Yeah, them and the BNP.

 

[The Smoking Man]

How many "leaders of men" could be classed as 'decent'?

Whether in the Force, Politics or Business the leaders are not know to be 'decent' and they are not penelised for it.

Except that in this case, he has sparked an international incident which has seen the foreign minister for Brazil make multiple visits to UK representatives AND the Brazilians are being allowed to bring in their own investigative team to question the 'shooters'.

What you fail to note is that we are 'hearing' one thing from Blair, seeing something contradictory in the evidence and barely a mention is being made of the international government reaction. (Spin control ... Blair is still talking to draw your attention away from the international incident)

de Menezes' family keeps talking to draw your attention back to it.

 

[arildno]

Note also the disgusting form of spin control Blair STILL is doing; namely, consistently linking the death of De Menezes to all those who died in the terrorist attacks.

This is extremely disrespectful of him; not only towards De Menezes and his family, but also towards those who died in these awful bombings.
He is simply using the victims of these atrocities in a game where he hopes to get out scot-free..

 

[arildno]

De Menezes' family refuses blood money:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1742573,00.html

 

[Art]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1742573,00.html

It would appear this is why one of the members of the IPCC leaked the report

There is also certain to be a row over claims last night that it may take years before the IPCC’s findings are published.

Officials there have confirmed to The Times that their files have to go to the coroner and possibly the Crown Prosecution Service and cannot be published until a decision has been taken on an inquest and the possible prosecution of officers involved in the shooting.

On past experience, it could well be 2008 before anyone appears in court, if at all.