The Ultimate Loss of Civil Liberties: Innocent Man Shot Dead in UK

In summary, the family of Jean Charles de Menezes, a Brazilian man shot dead by police in London, expressed anger and disbelief at the incident. The police, who were hunting the suspects of an attempted bomb attack, expressed regret and admitted the killing was a tragedy. There are arguments on both sides regarding the use of deadly force, but in this particular case, it is clear that the man was already immobilized and shooting him was not justifiable. Questions have been raised about why he ran and why he was wearing a winter coat in the summer, but it is confirmed that he had no connection to terrorism. The confusion and chaos of the situation likely led to his decision to run from the armed men, who he did not know were police
  • #596
Mmmm, you people type fast :bugeye:

"Aren't CO19 trained by SAS? "

Yes, I think I mentioned that before so yes they could employ the same tactics in that type of scenario (spelt it right this time). If they were SO19 then they would probably be held accountable after the internal investigation has been completed.
 
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  • #597
Daminc said:
IF the SF were involved then the tapes would probably fall under the military jurisdiction and the 'independent police complaints comission' would have a say in the matter.
If it was SF, then the sarcastic proposal you suggested earlier (replace police with military) wouldn't be so far-fetched, I guess.

Daminc said:
I can't think of any reason for why the public should be informed that any footage would be withheld for security reasons except perhaps they think it's simpler this way? I don't know.
I think he meant as opposed to claiming it didn't exist at all, i.e. lying (if that is the case). Surely admitting it exists but for security reasons cannot be made public is a much less stupid idea?
 
  • #598
Surely admitting it exists but for security reasons cannot be made public is a much less stupid idea?
I would have thought so.

If it was SF, then the sarcastic proposal you suggested earlier (replace police with military) wouldn't be so far-fetched, I guess.
The SAS are primarily involved Counter Terrorism (as far as I'm aware anyway)
 
  • #599
Daminc said:
The SAS are primarily involved Counter Terrorism (as far as I'm aware anyway)
Sure, I'm aware of their involvement in Ireland for one thing. Don't think they'd have cocked this up so monumentally to be honest.
 
  • #600
They are involved all over the world and the one thing that gives me doubts is that I agree that they wouldn't make such a c*ck up (unless there was some bad intel going around that we're not aware of yet)
 
  • #601
Inquest suspended for http://uk.news.yahoo.com/23082005/140/tube-shooting-brazil-trusts-uk-probe.html .
Wednesday August 24, 12:57 AM


Tube Shooting: Brazil 'Trusts' UK Probe

Brazilian officials say they do not think there has been a cover-up in the investigation into the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes at a London Tube station.They say they have 'total confidence' in the independent inquiry currently underway.Delegates from Brazil's Foreign Ministry held talks with Scotland Yard to find out how the investigation was being carried out and how UK legislation governs such incidents.

On Wednesday, the delegates will meet members of the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

Meanwhile, it has emerged that the report into the death of Mr Menezes will be completed by Christmas.

In a brief administrative inquest hearing at Inner South District Coroner's Court, Richard Latham QC, on behalf of the IPCC, said: "There is an intention to report before Christmas.

"No one would expect an investigation such as this to be hurried. It must be wide-ranging and conducted with very considerable care."

The inquest into the shooting of the Brazilian on the London Underground by anti-terrorist police was adjourned for six months.

Dozens of Brazilians in London has prayed for justice at a memorial mass for Mr de Menezes.

Father Federico Ribeiro of the Brazilian chaplaincy in Westminster Diocese said before the service that Brazilians would be praying for justice.

He said: "We want to pray for our Brazilian friend who we had here many times. We want the truth to prevail to show he was innocent."

He said that the reputation of the whole Brazilian community and not just Mr de Menezes' good name was at stake.
 
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  • #602
6 months :uhh: ... these "pros" just continue their lacklustre efforts. Like extra paperwork is going to polish the events, where have all the people with a backbone gone :confused:
 
  • #603
Pure Gall!

Wednesday August 24, 09:43 AM


Brazilians Meet Head Of Shooting Probe

Brazilian officials will today meet the head of the inquiry into the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes on the London Underground.They will have talks with the chairman of the Independent Police Complaints Commission to get an update on the probe.They want to see any CCTV footage of his shooting at Stockwell Tube Station in London on July 22, although police have said there is none available.

The 27-year-old's death has strained relations between Brazil and Britain and brought demands for the resignation of Scotland Yard Chief Sir Ian Blair.

But the Brazilian representatives said on Tuesday they did not believe the Metropolitan Police had tried to hide any details of the shooting.

Asked if he thought there had been a cover up, ambassador Manoel Gomes Pereira said: "At this point in time we do not think so, we do not have any reason to feel this."

But he admitted his government had been left "perplexed" when information from the independent inquiry into the shooting was leaked last week.

It was also revealed that the IPCC inquiry would be finished before Christmas.

But its report will not be published until all proceedings in the case are complete.

These will include any criminal or disciplinary measures against the police officers involved.
 
  • #605
They should have gone with O2. They work on the Underground just fine.
 
  • #606
arildno said:
It seems that the UK police and others have some rather severe communication problems on several fronts:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1748176_1,00.html
Wow! First off, well deduced Daminc - turns out the shooters were Army after all. Secondly, I'm not sure how far you can blame a 'breakdown in communications' when both the surveillance officers and the shooters were... you know... in the same carriage. Also, unless the SRU team were ordered to shoot, which according to Cmdr Dick in Saturday's Independant they were not, I'm not sure 'breakdown of communication' can account for 'no order to shoot' = 'blow his brains out'.
 
  • #607
No the shooters were POLICE marksmen; the surveillance officers on the carriage were army folk, I think..

POLICE marksmen and army surveillance teams following Jean Charles de Menezes onto a Tube train could not receive orders in the vital moments before he was shot dead because their radios did not work underground.

Kudos to Daminc, but I just found the following post from Art, 25/7:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=689970&postcount=7
right after the incident, there was at least clear to some here at PF that a severe communication failure must have taken place..
 
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  • #608
arildno said:
No the shooters were POLICE marksmen; the surveillance officers on the carriage were army folk, I think..
Yes, that makes more sense (I confess I skipped over some of the article). I would be less surprised at armed police effing it up than soldiers. Although it does seem both parties are at fault. It seems Tango Ten covered up his own embarrassment by giving the impression he made a decent ID when he did not, while the police do seem to have panicked and [ahem] shot too soon (I know the feeling). However, while if Tango Ten did give false information when raising the alert on de Menezes he was wrong to do so, I don't think it was reasonable to expect him to predict that some gun crazy cop was going to kill him on that basis. And was he really the only person watching the building? People do need to pee. Why was he in a position where his peeing needs would come into conflict with the [ahem] job in hand.

Yes, I think we all (or, at least, those not hailing the event as perfectly reasonable) observed some inability to communicate. The IDing of de Menezes and the changeover from surveillance to execution came up before as possible areas of screw-up. Now it's a bit clearer how this screw-up came about.

I'm still wondering what the beef was with his visa. At first it was claimed de Menezes was an illegal immigrant, then his family got upset and claimed that, while his visa did expire 2 years ago, he applied for another and it was approved two months (or weeks, can't remember) prior to the shooting. Then the home office stated simply that his visa expired two years ago, and mentioned nothing of another application. Then the IPCC kicked up a s**tstorm about the home office revealing misleading and incomplete information. Which is probably why we haven't heard anything on it since. It's bugging me. Whether he was here illegally or not doesn't make a blind difference, and the home office were clearly playing to British hatred of immigrunts with their statement, but it's still annoying not to know.
 
  • #609
The visa case is just an example of deliberate information planting in order to make De Menezes SEEM suspect.
Be sure that if it hadn't been utterly clear that De Menezes had not been involved in, say, drug trafficking, then information would have been leaked implying that he might have been involved in something of the sort.
 
  • #610
Yeah, I know, but nonetheless with the IPCC's cryptic wrist-slapping, you have to wonder what the actual legal state of his presence here was. I think all of the family's protests against police and government misinformation have proven well-founded, so he probably was here legally. Can't wait til Xmas, huh?
 
  • #611
With regards to the visa issue did the the home office omit the recent application approval or did the media do it to get a better story?
 
  • #612
Daminc said:
With regards to the visa issue did the the home office omit the recent application approval or did the media do it to get a better story?
As far as I know, the only people to have claimed there was a second application was de Menezes' family. All the home office stated was that de Menezes' visa expired two years ago. The IPCC slammed them for giving 'misleading' and 'incomplete' information, saying they had no idea why the home office said what they did. Interesting, no? Unfortunately, with the news of the delay in the completion of the report, we are unlikely to see the home office scrutinized on this issue.
 
  • #613
they had no idea why the home office said what they did.

Propaganda is the first weapon of politicians so it was probably a knee-jerk reaction :wink:
 
  • #614
Daminc said:
Propaganda is the first weapon of politicians so it was probably a knee-jerk reaction :wink:
I'm inclined to agree. However, in a drastic role reversal twixt you and I, I would like to be privy to the complete facts before I reach a conclusion :wink: . However, since de Menezes' legal status in this country is irrelevant to the shooting (hence it seems foul that the home office made a statement about it at all), and we can probably assume the scope of the report will not extend to the behaviour of the government itself, we'll be solely dependant on the long-term memory of the British press. Not very likely, in other words.
 
  • #615
However, in a drastic role reversal twixt you and I, I would like to be privy to the complete facts before I reach a conclusion
No role reversal needed :))

Against all odds let's walk hand-in-hand down the path of patience in the tireless search for more facts.

Let us contemplate the final day when our journey is complete and a revelation will be witnessed as a conclusion is born.

Let those who witness the Event go forth and spread the Truth of the conclusion for it was born from the ashes of Facts.


(Was that a bit OTT?)
 
  • #616
Daminc said:
(Was that a bit OTT?)
I'm walking if you two start writing sonnets to each other. :yuck:
 
  • #617
The Smoking Man said:
I'm walking if you two start writing sonnets to each other. :yuck:
What's so wrong if they start writing sonnets about the delights of role reversal? :confused:
 
  • #618
The Smoking Man said:
I'm walking if you two start writing sonnets to each other. :yuck:
Walking where? Down the path of patience? Beware of those who try to hold your hand, for they will lead you away to places from which people do not return. :wink:

I think he's trying to kill me.
 
  • #619
Methinks perhaps thou art wary my friend.

Fear not the path that leads towards the glorious gates of the palace of wisdom for it is written (Somewhere. I don't know where. Probably on the back of a beer mat) that time guides the curious to hidden pastures filled with knowledge (or cow pats, I can't remember).
 
  • #620
Daminc said:
Methinks perhaps thou art wary my friend.

Fear not the path that leads towards the glorious gates of the palace of wisdom for it is written (Somewhere. I don't know where. Probably on the back of a beer mat) that time guides the curious to hidden pastures filled with knowledge (or cow pats, I can't remember).
Be that as it may, I'm still not holding hands with you. Not for all the cow pats in the world.
 
  • #621
arildno said:
I do not know the legal ramifications of the so-called STK-policy well enough to know whether the police action against De Menezes crossed the line as drawn up in that policy (which will be a crucial point in determining the legal culpability of the officers involved, however much I regard them as mere executioners of an innocent man).

I am concerned when any government implements a "shoot-to-kill" policy without the necessary thought that addresses the consequences.

The individuals responsible for the actions leading to STK need proper training, and in fact, the individuals should be selected for the ability of rational thought (especially in a stressful situation), because if they act on 'belief' then innocent people will be killed.

Clearly the police, SO19 or whoever were sensitized by the previous bombings, but that is why the 'system' needs to be careful.

Did the 'system' not anticipate the circumstances whereby an innocent person might be killed, or do the individuals like Ian Blair simply not care?


What will happen in the future? What will happen at Christmas time when all the people are running around with packages/presents, any of which could contain a bomb?

How does one successfully distinguish a 'real bomber' from tens of thousands of innocent people?

Can a society accept the fact that innocent people will be killed inadvertently?


One of the problems appears to be that de Menzes looked Middle Eastern, and that was enough for the police (or whomever) to initiate actions which resulted in the death of an innocent man. Perhaps there is a latent racism invovled in this particularly situation, and that needs to be addressed by the 'system'.

We can't read others' minds, even retrospectively. We can only make sure the events do not reoccur.
 
  • #622
The Smoking Man said:
I'm walking if you two start writing sonnets to each other. :yuck:
Ditto! :yuck: :yuck: :yuck:
 
  • #624
If what that lady says is accurate they I can't even speculate what was in the mind of the shooter ?
 
  • #625
Since a SINGLE head shot wound is most often immediately incapacitating (and probably fatal), the fact that he was shot a multiple number of times in his head should, by itself, raise grave doubts as to what actually went on within the shooter's heads.
 
  • #626
It's different if the shooter believed he was killing a suicide bomber or had a remote contolled detonator because he/she would be trying to destroy the brain to prevent reflex action therefore the amount of rounds would depend on whether the target is moving at all (keep firing until all movement is stopped)
 
  • #627
I wonder why the IPCC omitted parts of her statement. I was about to say "hopefully that was a mistake", but why would I be hopeful that the people investigating this tragedy were prone to such mistakes? But nor do I hope they are being selective over the evidence they cite. A lose-lost scenario for the British public, I figure.
 
  • #628
Daminc said:
It's different if the shooter believed he was killing a suicide bomber or had a remote contolled detonator because he/she would be trying to destroy the brain to prevent reflex action therefore the amount of rounds would depend on whether the target is moving at all (keep firing until all movement is stopped)
A bullet in the brain can just as easily cause involuntary movement.
 
  • #629
Maybe I'm wrong, I'm no doctor :)
What I do know is that military personel are trained that in those circumstances (potential suicide bomber or remote detonation) you're to keep firing until the body seizes all movement.
 
  • #630
I wonder why the IPCC omitted parts of her statement.
I'm sure you are aware that witnessess make bad witnessess. If there was 30 witnessess it would be unlikely that any of them would see the same thing. The trick, I think, is to listen to all of them and find the correlations. It takes a lot of training to observe details in a high stress situation.
 

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