The wave-function as a true ensemble

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the interpretation of the wave-function in quantum mechanics, particularly the distinction between ψ-ontic and ψ-epistemic interpretations. Participants explore the implications of these interpretations for ensemble theories and the concept of statistical independence within quantum mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that the ψ-ontic/epistemic distinction does not adequately identify ensemble interpretations and propose a new definition that may be more useful.
  • One participant suggests that if hidden variables map to the same wave-function, the wave-function can be included as part of the hidden variables, raising concerns about the robustness of the definition of 'ontic'.
  • Another participant introduces a specific observable related to a quantum state and discusses how it can be used to characterize the physical state of the system, implying a connection between the wave-function and hidden variables.
  • A correction is made regarding the prediction of observables by pure states, clarifying that only pure states orthogonal to a given state will predict a specific outcome with certainty.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion features multiple competing views regarding the interpretation of the wave-function and the implications for ensemble theories. There is no consensus on the definitions or implications presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the definitions of 'ontic' and 'epistemic', and there are unresolved mathematical details concerning the observables and their predictions.

bohm2
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"We argue that the ψ-ontic/epistemic distinction fails to properly identify ensemble interpretations and propose a more useful definition. We then show that all ψ-ensemble interpretations which reproduce quantum mechanics violate Statistical Independence."

https://arxiv.org/abs/2109.02676
 
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"Suppose you have a theory that isn’t ontic because two of the hidden variables map to the same wave-function. Well, then you can just declare the wave-function to be part of the hidden variables, so that the new hidden variables – now including the wave-function – will always map to only one wave-function. Such an easily malleable definition of ‘ontic’ is not what one wants to base theorems on."

This is an interesting point. If I have a quantum state ##\psi##, I can always define an observable $$\hat{O} = \lambda_\psi|\psi\rangle\langle\psi| + \lambda_{\not\psi}(\hat{I} - |\psi\rangle\langle\psi|)$$ We have a property ##\lambda_\psi## resolvable (in principle) by experiment, that ##\psi## predicts with certainty. All other pure states will predict ##\lambda_{\not\psi}## with certainty. Make this variable a real hidden variable and voila, your wavefunction uniquely characterises the physical state of the system.
 
Morbert said:
"All other pure states will predict ##\lambda_{\not\psi}## with certainty.
No, they won't. Only pure states orthogonal to ##\psi## will.
 
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Oops stupid mistake
 
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