Thermodynamics, manipulating partial derivatives

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a thermodynamics problem involving the manipulation of partial derivatives related to the coefficients of thermal expansion and compressibility. The original poster seeks to understand the separation of partial derivatives in the context of finding expressions for volume as a function of temperature and pressure.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to manipulate differentials associated with the coefficients of thermal expansion and compressibility but questions the validity of separating partial derivatives. Other participants clarify the conditions under which these manipulations are valid and provide insights into the relationship between the coefficients and the differential of volume.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively engaging in clarifying the mathematical concepts involved, with some providing helpful insights regarding the conditions necessary for the manipulation of partial derivatives. The original poster expresses a better understanding of the topic following the discussion.

Contextual Notes

The original poster notes a lack of coverage on partial derivatives and differentials in their current calculus course, which may contribute to their confusion regarding the topic. There is also an acknowledgment of the thread's relocation to a more appropriate section of the forum.

MexChemE
Messages
237
Reaction score
54
Hello PF! It's been a while since I last posted here. I have come across a problem in my textbook, which asks me to find expressions for V as a function of T and P, starting from the coefficients of thermal expansion and compressibility.
\alpha = \frac{1}{V} \left(\frac{\partial V}{\partial T} \right)_P
\beta = -\frac{1}{V} \left(\frac{\partial V}{\partial P} \right)_T
I've already solved the problem, I separated the differentials and integrated, then cleared for V. Now, here's where I have trouble. This is how I manipulated the differentials:
\alpha \ dT= \frac{1}{V} \ dV
\beta \ dP= -\frac{1}{V} \ dV
Both my professor, and Castellan's PChem text say this is correct, however, neither my professor nor the book explain why the separation of a partial derivative works in this case. Math professors have always said we can't "break" a partial derivative the same way we do for a regular derivative. If anyone could offer some insight about this case, it would be very helpful. Thanks!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
\alpha dT=\frac{dV}{V} under the condition p=const or dp=0
\beta dP=\frac{-dV}{V} under the condition T=const or dT=0
You need these conditions.
 
If V is a function V(P,T) of P and T, then
dV=\left(\frac{\partial V}{\partial P}\right)_TdP+\left(\frac{\partial V}{\partial T}\right)_PdT

Chet
 
Thank you both! I understand now, I thought they were just magically turning the partial derivative into a regular one. I wasn't aware of how both coefficients relate to the differential of V. We haven't covered partial derivatives or differentials of multivariable functions in Calc III, my professor is going a bit slowly. But we have started to use them in Thermodynamics I, so everything I know about the subject right now is from what I have read on my own.

Oh, and I'm sorry you had to move my thread, I thought it could be posted in the physics section since I wasn't asking for help on solving the problem itself, just a doubt with the math involved, but I'll be more careful next time.
 

Similar threads

Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
19
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
30
Views
5K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
3K
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K