They are listed as Greek when they aren't really Greek

[Danger]

No one knows where Euclid was born, we can only guess at a year, nothing is actually known, so your claim that he was Egyptian is without basis (see link). He lived under the reign of Ptolemy I. Ptolemy was Macedonian, he was the first Ptolemy to rule Egypt.

Well, ****... I always thought that he was from Idaho, but apparently I was mistaken.

Jimmy, I have my own approach to your "Japanese" question, but it probably isn't one that is recognized by governments. By my standards, if you were just living there you were a resident alien, landed immigrant, or whatever the local terminology defines it as, but were still a citizen of your original nation. Had you obtained citizenship in Japan, you would have been Japanese (or of dual nationality if you retained the original). That brings up two things that have always puzzled me. One is that by English law one is incapable of losing citizenship (or was, when this first came to my attention; it might be different now). By US law, conversely, one seeking to become a Yank legally has to relinquish any previous citizenship. So how the hell is it that there are so many Brits in the States? England says "you're still English whether or not you like it" and Washington say's "no you aren't". What the hell... are they going to start another war over it?
The other thing that puzzles me is Jews. One of my newest and best PF friends is Jewish, and so is the girlfriend of my pool teammate, and a few friends from my past, but I haven't asked any of them about it. How is the designation "Jew" derived? Do you go by what day of the week they treat as Sabbath, the size of their noses, where they live...? I always took it to be someone who embraced Judaism as their religion, regardless of background (such as Sammy Davis Jr.), but I've had others disagree.
I don't even know whether or not I should post this in case it implies any sort of racism that doesn't exist. My compromise is that I am posting it, and then reporting the post so a Mentor can decide upon whether or not it is acceptable.

 

[Evo]

As for Euclid, I would settle for 'Egypt/Greek'. Attributing the genius of Euclid completely to Greek is unfair. Is there any agreement on this?

Most of the theorems appearing in the Elements were not discovered by Euclid himself, but were the work of earlier Greek mathematicians such as Pythagoras (and his school), Hippocrates of Chios, Theaetetus of Athens, and Eudoxus of Cnidos. However, Euclid is generally credited with arranging these theorems in a logical manner, so as to demonstrate (admittedly, not always with the rigour demanded by modern mathematics) that they necessarily follow from five simple axioms. Euclid is also credited with devising a number of particularly ingenious proofs of previously discovered theorems: e.g., Theorem 48 in Book 1.

http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/euclid.html

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Jimmy, I have my own approach to your "Japanese" question, but it probably isn't one that is recognized by governments.

My wife is Chinese, but she got US citizenship after we married. I often joke that she is no longer Chinese, but it doesn't get the big yuks.

I am Jewish myself. I don't take offense at your questions, but I will point out to you that many German Jews went to the gas chambers muttering that they were German first and Jewish second. I am American first for all the good it may do me. As for who is a Jew, there are many opinions. For the most part it doesn't matter. If you show up for synagogue service some Saturday morning you may be asked if you are Jewish and if you answer yes, be offered an opportunity to say a blessing over a portion of the Torah reading. No one will check your credentials nor are there any be be had. I have none other than my verbal claim to be Jewish. I don't know what proofs the State of Israel requires for a claim to citizenship based on right of return. I can't prove my Jewishness by any means of which I am aware and yet am as Jewish as anyone can get.

 

[jackson6612]

http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/euclid.html

Hi Evo

Now you would deprive Euclid of his greatness, genius and claim all the work he is known for to earlier Greeks. It is a naive argument and I hear it from time to time. When they talk about the Arabs, they say they, the Arabs, didn't do anything new they merely catalogued the already discovered knowledge of the Greeks. Well, we all use the works of earlier giants, make our own additions, improve those works, expand the field of knowledge. Many of the things we struggle to understand even to this day are reminiscent of works of many ancient cultures. There are many Indian and Chinese mathematicians and scientists of the earlier centuries which they always try to ignore. They start in the West, I mean Greece, and end in the West. No offense should be taken.

I see you don't agree on the 'Egyptian/Greek' label. I can smell it.

 

[Evo]

Hi Evo

Now you would deprive Euclid of his greatness, genius and claim all the work he is known for to earlier Greeks. It is a naive argument and I hear it from time to time. When they talk about the Arabs, they say they, the Arabs, didn't do anything new they merely catalogued the already discovered knowledge of the Greeks. Well, we all use the works of earlier giants, make our own additions, improve those works, expand the field of knowledge. Many of the things we struggle to understand even to this day are reminiscent of works of many ancient cultures. There are many Indian and Chinese mathematicians and scientists of the earlier centuries which they always try to ignore. They start in the West, I mean Greece, and end in the West. No offense should be taken.

I see you don't agree on the 'Egyptian/Greek' label. I can smell it.

Just stating what is known. You are the one that is trying to label people for some reason.

 

[Chi Meson]

Hi Evo

Now you would deprive Euclid of his greatness, genius and claim all the work he is known for to earlier Greeks.

That is not so. All the work that Euclid did is credit to Euclid, not to Greeks nor to Egyptians. He was in Alexandria because that was the hub of knowlendge for centuries where the great minds of Europe, Asia, and Africa came together.

It is a naive argument and I hear it from time to time. When they talk about the Arabs, they say they, the Arabs, didn't do anything new they merely catalogued the already discovered knowledge of the Greeks.

Now who is saying that? The claim that there is no significant Arabian contribution to mathematics is absurd! Everyone in the world now uses "Arabic" numerals and studies Algebra ("al-jabr"). Diophantus (another Greek Alexandrian) improved the Algebra of the Arabic scholars, who in turn picked up and improved the mathematics of India.

But this really has nothing to do with classifying Euclid or Heron or Diophantus a "Greek" or "Egyptian."

We can avoid all of this by calling them all "Alexandrians." Labeling them as "Greek Alexandrians" does little more than tell you which language they spoke and how they dressed while they were there.

 

[jackson6612]

We can avoid all of this by calling them all "Alexandrians."

Hi Meson

I would go with your suggestion. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Danger]

If you show up for synagogue service some Saturday morning you may be asked if you are Jewish and if you answer yes, be offered an opportunity to say a blessing over a portion of the Torah reading. No one will check your credentials nor are there any be be had.

So you're basically a Unitarian with a funny hat?

I agree with Chi for his last post. Euclid, Aristotle, Ptolemy, whoever... it doesn't matter whether Copernicus was Italian or Korean or Norweedish; the contributions came from within him.
This might be in error, since I have no formal education, but I was under the impression that Persia (Iran on current maps) was the seat of all mathematics. Wasn't it them who came up with the concept of "zero", the lack of which might have had something to do with the fall of the Roman Empire? (Face it; you can't accurately aim artillery without it. And how did they even keep score during the Christian/lion contests?)

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

So you're basically a Unitarian with a funny hat?

In that we believe in no more than one deity, yes.

 

[Evo]

I think, perhaps, what jackson doesn't understand is that there is "Greek Mathematics", just as there is "Greek Philosophy" and Euclid is considered a Greek mathematician, it does not matter where he was born.

Perhaps this will help him understand why they are referred to as Greek.

Basic facts about the origin of Greek civilization and its mathematics.

The best estimate is that the Greek civilization dates back to 2800 B.C. -- just about the time of the construction of the great pyramids in Egypt. The Greeks settled in Asia Minor, possibly their original home, in the area of modern Greece, and in southern Italy, Sicily, Crete, Rhodes, Delos, and North Africa.

About 775 B.C. they changed from a hieroglyphic writing to the Phoenician alphabet. This allowed them to become more literate, or at least more facile in their ability to express conceptual thought.

The ancient Greek civilization lasted until about 600 B.C.

The Egyptian and Babylonian influence was greatest in Miletus, a city of Ionia in Asia Minor and the birthplace of Greek philosophy, mathematics and science.

From the viewpoint of its mathematics, it is best to distinguish between the two periods: the classical period from about 600 B.C. to 300 B.C. and the Alexandrian or Hellenistic period from 300 B.C. to 300 A.D. Indeed, from about 350 B.C. the center of mathematics moved from Athens to Alexandria (in Egypt), the city built by Alexander the Great (358 -323 B.C.). It remained the center of mathematics for a millennium until the library was sacked by the Muslims in about 700 A.D.

http://www.math.tamu.edu/~dallen/history/greekorg/greekorg.html

Euclid is a Greek Mathematician. Doesn't matter where he was born or lived or died.

 

[turbo]

Country/region of origin isn't as important as the tradition in which the scientists/philosophers worked. The Mediterranean was not a real static environment in a nationalistic sense. It has been mentioned that Greece was a collection of city-states. It should also be mentioned that apart from the period of the Roman Empire when the empire was ascendant, Italy was often a collection of city-states.

Alexandria was like today's CERN, attracting the best and the brightest.

 

[Danger]

apart from the period of the Roman Empire when the empire was ascendant, Italy was often a collection of city-states.

Oh crap... you and I are probably the only ones here who actually remember when Venice was a country.

 

[turbo]

Oh crap... you and I are probably the only ones here who actually remember when Venice was a country.

And all the bankers were from Florence.

 

[Gokul43201]

This might be in error, since I have no formal education, but I was under the impression that Persia (Iran on current maps) was the seat of all mathematics. Wasn't it them who came up with the concept of "zero", the lack of which might have had something to do with the fall of the Roman Empire? (Face it; you can't accurately aim artillery without it. And how did they even keep score during the Christian/lion contests?)

The invention of zero as a number (and more than just a place holder) is usually attributed to ancient India. While the Greeks seemed to spend an eternity pondering whether "nothing" could be "something" (to quote the wiki entry), it seems the Indians were more than happy to shut up and calculate!

 

[Danger]

The invention of zero as a number (and more than just a place holder) is usually attributed to ancient India.

Thanks for the clarification, Gokul. I knew that it was somewhere on the opposite side of the planet and a couple of years before I was born, but the details eluded me.

 

[jackson6612]

I think, perhaps, what jackson doesn't understand is that there is "Greek Mathematics", just as there is "Greek Philosophy" and Euclid is considered a Greek mathematician, it does not matter where he was born.

Perhaps this will help him understand why they are referred to as Greek.

http://www.math.tamu.edu/~dallen/history/greekorg/greekorg.html

Euclid is a Greek Mathematician. Doesn't matter where he was born or lived or died.

Hi Evo

Thanks for all the valuable comments. How would define 'Greek Mathematics'? How would you define 'Indian Mathematics'? How would you define 'Different Schools of Greek Mathematics'?

I would say 'Greek Mathematics' is a term to define the ideas discovered or popular in Greece, or its colonies at that time, the same kind of language used to present those ideas, etc. There is no 'Greek Mathematics', per se. Science doesn't carry any flag. A circle looks the same way to everyone and it always has the same properties. The language and its ability to express mathematical ideas could differ, e.g. Hindu/Arabic numerals was more fluent system, concept of zero revolutionized many new ideas in mathematics, and the others. The development and ability of human mind to recognize and understand the mathematical ideas and patterns greatly affect its progress, the discovery or invention of zero is one example.

The term 'School' here is used both in the sense of an institution and of set of ideas. Pythagoras ordered the drowning of one of his students after he proved that square root of 2 is not a rational number. It was against Pythagoras' mathematical ideas, his school of thought. His school is called Pythagoreanism. If I happen to incidentally follow some of Plato's philosophy, then you could not simply call me a Neoplatonist. It's just that he had been born before me and happened to think the same way as I did. The formula for Pi discovered by Leibniz had already been discovered centuries before by an Indian named Madhava. I wouldn't say that the formula is part of 'Indian Mathematics', I would say its discoverer was an Indian. If Madhava had used mathematical concepts and language popular in Russia, I would say he was following 'Russian School of Mathematics'. I wouldn't call him a Russian mathematician, though. Even the famous Pythagoras theorem was known to Babylonians and Indians.

Perhaps, you can correct me.

Best wishes
Jack