The forum discussion centers on the complexities of special relativity, particularly regarding time dilation and length contraction. Participants clarify that observers moving relative to one another perceive each other's clocks as running slower, while also experiencing length contraction. The discussion emphasizes the symmetrical nature of these observations, where each observer measures the other's distance and time differently. Key examples include the muon experiment and the twin paradox, illustrating the principles of relativity in practical scenarios.
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Bartolomeo said:If mirror gains kinetic energy, it will start moving and recede from another mirror. But, if the mirrors are rigidly fixed (on the opposite sides of a room) the same amount on energy it had swallowed on reception of a photon it will transfer to the photon when spitting it out.
Otherwise it is not a mirror, but a well-polished boots, for example.
You can't have it perfectly rigidly fixed, however, since there can be no perfectly rigid rods, if that matters.Bartolomeo said:If mirror gains kinetic energy, it will start moving and recede from another mirror. But, if the mirrors are rigidly fixed (on the opposite sides of a room) the same amount on energy it had swallowed on reception of a photon it will transfer to the photon when spitting it out.
Otherwise it is not a mirror, but a well-polished boots, for example.
I don't think it's possible with a single light pulse. I was only commenting that your description of the experiment was incomplete - you said "along the y axis" without saying according to whom.Bartolomeo said:@Ibix. I'm thinking. You say that - something is wrong with setup of experiment. I break my head for quite a long time and I cannot figure out how to conduct such an experiment, so us to get redshift for the both observes in the same experiment. I mean observation of frequency. I would be most grateful for your advice.
Hmmm... IMHO there is one minor problem. If Bartolomeo and Ibix want to release photon along his own Y axis each, we both have to keep our tubes a right angle to direction of travel. One straight up and another straight down. This is the case of Joe and Aliens we started from. We simply will not see each other, I am afraid to say.Ibix said:I don't think it's possible with a single light pulse. I was only commenting that your description of the experiment was incomplete - you said "along the y axis" without saying according to whom.
I think the best you can do is require both parties to follow the same experimental procedure. Both fire a light pulse along their own y-axis and both reflect the other's pulse back. Assuming the pulses have the same proper frequency at emission both observers will agree on the frequency of the pulse they receive from the other and on the frequency of their own pulse reflected back. (Also they will agree that the reflection times were simultaneous and that the other ship emitted the pulse first and received the reflected pulse last.)
This is the reciprocity we expect.
It is exactly moving mirror case. Mirror receives photon through one tube which looks into front and spits out through another which tilted back. This tube back will not release photon at right angle in mirrors frameIbix said:Actually you can't use a single tube for reflection because you don't send it back the way it came. You need a v-shaped tube with a mirror at the point, and a single tube for your emission and reception of returned pulse.
It is not physics already. It is rather psyhics. It is the same as to conduct one experiment at 10 AM and another at 2 PM.Ibix said:So use two tubes - one for the emission and return of your own pulse and obe for the reflection of the other guy's pulse. Or rotate one tube after you emit and before you reflect, then rotate back in time to receive your own pulse reflected back.
Of course it's the same, if you do the same experiment. As I noted earlier, you keep running antisymmetric experiments, swapping participants, then acting surprised when the results swap. That is the reason for the difference between your 10am and 2pm experiments.Bartolomeo said:It is not physics already. It is rather psyhics. It is the same as to conduct one experiment at 10 AM and another at 2 PM.
Not true in general, as we've discussed at length. The fact that the laws of physics are the same in any inertial frame does not mean that all physical situations must be described the same way in all inertial frames. If it did there would be no need to consider frames.Bartolomeo said:Reciprocity of observations occurs, when you change reference frame.
I have no idea what this is meant to mean.Bartolomeo said:It shows that reference frame is mutual property but not private.
I wish you wouldn't as this conversation is helping my own understanding, lol.Ibix said:Not true in general, as we've discussed at length. The fact that the laws of physics are the same in any inertial frame does not mean that all physical situations must be described the same way in all inertial frames. If it did there would be no need to consider frames.
I have no idea what this is meant to mean.
This conversation isn't going anywhere, so I'm out. Nothing you are saying invalidates anything I understand about relativity. If it causes problems for your understanding, then it would seem to be your understanding at fault.