Time reversal and herring test

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the time reversal properties of specific irreducible representations (irreps) in the context of group theory, particularly focusing on the Pnnm(58) group and the Herring test. Participants explore theoretical implications and results related to the representations $\Gamma_{3}^+$ and $\Gamma_{4}^+$, as well as the conditions under which these representations may be time reversal degenerate.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant references J. O. Dimmock's work suggesting that $\Gamma_{3}^+$ and $\Gamma_{4}^+$ should be time reversal degenerate, implying that $\Sigma\chi\{R^2\}$ should equal 0.
  • Another participant points out that the irreps of the double group #58 are being considered, noting that the $\gamma^+$ and $\gamma^-$ for 1-4 are irreps of the simple group and are one-dimensional real representations, which cannot be complex, leading to a conclusion that Herring must equal +1.
  • A participant acknowledges the consensus among several researchers that $\Gamma_{3}^+$ and $\Gamma_{4}^+$ should be time reversal degenerate, expressing skepticism about the possibility that all these researchers could be incorrect.
  • Another participant asserts that for any real irrep, Herring must equal +1, emphasizing that one-dimensional irrep characters correspond to matrices, thus reinforcing the claim that $\Gamma_{3}$ and $\Gamma_{4}$ are real and cannot yield Herring = 0.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the time reversal properties of the representations in question. While some assert that $\Gamma_{3}^+$ and $\Gamma_{4}^+$ cannot be time reversal degenerate, others reference established literature suggesting otherwise. The discussion remains unresolved with competing perspectives on the validity of the Herring test results.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not reached consensus on the interpretation of the Herring test results or the implications of the irreps' properties, highlighting potential limitations in their assumptions regarding time reversal degeneracy.

jackychenp
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In the group of Pnnm(58), according to J. O. Dimmock Phys. Rev.(1962), [tex]$\Gamma_{3}^+$[/tex] and [tex]$\Gamma_{4}^+$[/tex] should be time reversal degenerated and that means [tex]$\Sigma\chi\{R^2\}$[/tex] should be 0. I've attached my result using Herring test. I cannot get 0 for these two representations even though I have tried hard. Any suggestions are appreciable!
 

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It seems you are considering the irreps of the double group #58. The \gamma^+ and ^- for 1-4 are the irreps of the simple group #58, and they are 1 dimensional real representations and thus by definition cannot be complex and Herring must be +1. \Gamma_5^+ and - are indeed 2 dimensional and complex and might be have herring=0...
 
Yes, that is the same as what I derived, but a lot of workers include D.D. Sell, R. Loudon, and J.O. Dimmock think [tex]$\Gamma_{3}^+$[/tex] and [tex]$\Gamma_{4}^+$[/tex] should be time reversal degenerate. It is really a small chance that they are all wrong.
 
For any real irrep you will have herring=+1. In case of 1 dimensional irrep characters==matrises, so the irreps \Gamma_3 and 4 are real. No chance to get herring=0...
 

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