True/False differentiation problem

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a problem involving a twice differentiable function \( g(x) \) with specific boundary conditions, exploring the validity of several statements related to the function's derivatives and fixed points. The scope includes mathematical reasoning and application of the Mean Value Theorem (MVT).

Discussion Character

  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that there exist distinct points \( C_1, C_2 \in (0,1) \) such that \( g'(C_1) + g'(C_2) = 2 \) can be proven using the Mean Value Theorem.
  • Others question the necessity of having \( g'(C_2) = 1 \) for some \( C_2 \in (0,C_1) \), suggesting that it may not hold true in all cases.
  • One participant points out a mistake in reasoning regarding the application of the MVT, indicating confusion about the implications of the first and second derivatives.
  • Another participant proposes defining a new function \( f(x) = g(x) - g(1-x) \) to explore the relationship between the derivatives and the conditions given.
  • Some argue that while the conditions of the problem do not require \( g \) to be twice differentiable, continuity of \( g' \) could lead to the conclusion that \( g'(C_1) \) and \( g'(C_2) \) can be adjusted to satisfy the equation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the statements A, B, C, and D, with some agreeing on the truth of B and D while others remain uncertain about A and C. The discussion reflects multiple competing views and does not reach a consensus.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight limitations in their reasoning, particularly regarding the assumptions made about the derivatives and the conditions under which the Mean Value Theorem applies. There is also mention of potential confusion surrounding the implications of the second derivative.

Saitama
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Problem:
Let $g(x)$ be twice differentiable function satisfying $g(0)=0$, $g(1)=1$. Then, which of the following is/are correct?

A) there exist distinct $C_1,C_2\in (0,1)$ such that $g'(C_1)+g'(C_2)=2$.

B) there will be atleast one $C$ such that $g'(C)=1$ for $C\in (0,1)$

C) there will be atleast one $C\in (0,1)$ such that $g(C)=C$ for $C\in (0,1)$

D) if $g(\alpha)=\alpha$ for $\alpha \in (0,1)$ then there will exist atleast one $C\in (0,1)$ such that $g''(C)=0$.

Attempt:
The given answer is A, B and D. I have shown that B and D are true and C is false but I am not sure how to begin with proving A. I really don't know where to start.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!
 
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Pranav said:
Problem:
Let $g(x)$ be twice differentiable function satisfying $g(0)=0$, $g(1)=1$. Then, which of the following is/are correct?

A) there exist distinct $C_1,C_2\in (0,1)$ such that $g'(C_1)+g'(C_2)=2$.

B) there will be atleast one $C$ such that $g'(C)=1$ for $C\in (0,1)$

C) there will be atleast one $C\in (0,1)$ such that $g(C)=C$ for $C\in (0,1)$

D) if $g(\alpha)=\alpha$ for $\alpha \in (0,1)$ then there will exist atleast one $C\in (0,1)$ such that $g''(C)=0$.

Attempt:
The given answer is A, B and D. I have shown that B and D are true and C is false but I am not sure how to begin with proving A. I really don't know where to start.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

Hi Pranav,

Let me give some ideas for proving (A). Basically we have to apply the Mean Value Theorem twice. There exist $C_1\in(0,\,1)$ such that,

\[f'(C_1)=\frac{f(1)-f(0)}{1-0}=1\]

Now again apply the mean value theorem considering the points $C_1$ and $0$. Then you'll get a point $C_2\in (0,\, C_1)$ such that, $f'(C_2)=1$. Hope you can continue. :)
 
Hi Sudharka! :)

Sudharaka said:
Now again apply the mean value theorem considering the points $C_1$ and $0$. Then you'll get a point $C_2\in (0,\, C_1)$ such that, $f'(C_2)=1$. Hope you can continue. :)

I am not sure but intuitively, I think this isn't necessarily true. For example, consider the graph shown in attachment. There is no $C_2$ in $(0,C_1)$ where $g'(C_2)=1$. What's wrong with my thinking? :confused:
 

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Pranav said:
Hi Sudharka! :)I am not sure but intuitively, I think this isn't necessarily true. For example, consider the graph shown in attachment. There is no $C_2$ in $(0,C_1)$ where $g'(C_2)=1$. What's wrong with my thinking? :confused:

Oh sorry. As you see there's a mistake in my previous post. Using the mean value theorem (for the first derivative) on the points $(0,\, C_1)$, we can only get $f''(C_1)=\frac{f'(C_1)-f'(0)}{C_1}$ which doesn't mean a thing. I confused it somehow and thought $f'(C_1)=1$.
 
Sudharaka said:
Oh sorry. As you see there's a mistake in my previous post. Using the mean value theorem (for the first derivative) on the points $(0,\, C_1)$, we can only get $f''(C_1)=\frac{f'(C_1)-f'(0)}{C_1}$ which doesn't mean a thing. I confused it somehow and thought $f'(C_1)=1$.

I am still not sure where to start. Why are you dealing with the second derivative? Can you please explain a little more?
 
What happens if you apply the MVT to $[0,1/2]$ and $[1/2,1]$?
 
Define $f(x) = g(x) - g(1-x)$.
 
ThePerfectHacker said:
Define $f(x) = g(x) - g(1-x)$.
On the one hand, this establishes a stronger fact because not only $g'(C_1)+g'(C_2)=2$, but also $C_1+C_2=1$. On the other hand, it may happen that $C_1=C_2=1/2$, while the problem requires distinct points.

The solutions above require only that $g$ satisfies the MVT on $[0,1]$, i.e., that $f$ is continuous on $[0,1]$ and $g$ is differentiable on $(0,1)$. It is not required that $g$ is twice differentiable. However, a quick-and-dirty way to see that A) is true (say, on a test) is as follows. We know that $g'(c)=1$ for some $c\in(0,1)$ by applying the MVT to $g$. If $g'$ continuous on $[0,1]$ (which happens when $g$ is twice differentiable on $[0,1]$), then it is possible to disturb $g'(c)$ a little so that it becomes $1+\delta$ and $1-\delta$ in two different points. More precisely, $g'(x)$ attains its maximum $M$ and minimum $m$ and we have $m\le1\le M$. Then either $m=M=1$ or $m<1<M$. (If, say, $m=1<M$, then $g$ grows at least as fast as $y=x$, but on some interval, due to continuity of $g'$, it grows strictly faster that $y=x$, so $g(1)>1$.) If $m=M=1$, then $C_1,C_2$ can be any points in $[0,1]$. Otherwise, it is possible to select a $0<\delta<\min(1-m,M-1)$, so $1-\delta$ and $1+\delta$ are in $[m,M]$. By the IVT applied to $g'$ there exist $C_1,C_2$ where $g'(C_1)=1-\delta$ and $g'(C_2)=1+\delta$.
 
Thanks Evgeny.Makarov and ThePerfectHacker! :)
 

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