Uncovering the Complexity of Single Neurons: A Look into Homoclinic Orbits

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the complexity of single neurons, comparing their functionality to transistors and supercomputers, and exploring various models used to study neuronal behavior, including the Hodgkin Huxley model and the concept of homoclinic orbits. The scope includes theoretical modeling, computational neuroscience, and biological implications.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that single neurons are more akin to transistors than supercomputers, though they acknowledge the complexity of neuronal compartments.
  • Others highlight that while models like the Hodgkin Huxley treat neurons as single compartments, real neurons exhibit complex behaviors that require more detailed modeling.
  • There is mention of dendritic properties and subthreshold membrane oscillations as factors that contribute to the computational capabilities of neurons.
  • Participants discuss the importance of neuron-glia interactions, calcium spikes, and synapse types in understanding neuronal complexity.
  • Some argue that while simplified models can capture certain neuronal behaviors, they may not fully represent the intricacies of biological neurons.
  • There is a discussion about the limitations of 2D models in representing bursting behavior, with a claim that true bursting requires three-dimensional modeling.
  • One participant explains the concept of homoclinic orbits and their relevance to neuronal oscillations and bursting dynamics.
  • Another participant expresses uncertainty about the definition of 'true' bursting and seeks clarification on the mathematical aspects involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the complexity of neurons and the adequacy of different models. There is no consensus on the best way to represent neuronal behavior, and multiple competing perspectives remain throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion is limited by the assumptions underlying various models and the definitions of terms like 'true' bursting. The mathematical details of bursting dynamics and homoclinic orbits are also acknowledged as complex and potentially unresolved.

mrspeedybob
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A brief internet search revealed that the number of neurons in a human brain is in the 85 - 100 billion ballpark. (reference) What I could not find was any clear indication of how complex a single neuron is. Is the brain like a network of 85 - 100 billion transistors or 85 - 100 billion super-computers?
 
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Closer to the transistors than the supercomputers, but nonethless a single neuron does have many compartments. However, sometimes we can get away with modelling it as a single compartment, eg. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10436067 treats the Purkinje cell as if it had just one compartment, although it clearly has a complex structure http://www.coloradocollege.edu/academics/dept/neuroscience/course/slides/histology-and-cellular-.dot . On the other hand, some phenomena require taking the shape of the neuron and the differences between the compartments into account, eg. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20364143. (I'm using "compartments" loosely, it just means things are different in differents parts of the neuron. In general things can change smoothly, and not in discrete steps that "compartments" might imply.)
 
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A canonical model for studying the neuron is the Hodgkin Huxley model, a four dimensional system of differential equations. This is still just a single compartment, but the single compartment can do a lot of things.

Neurons can function both as https://www.tapr.org/images/dsp4.figure_3.jpg and integrators; a bit more complex than transistors, I think, but definitely not a super computer (unless maybe you buy into microtubule quantum cosnciousness, but I think that's still in crackpot realm).
 
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There's also dendritic properties and subthreshold membrane oscillations, both of which can carry out complex computations on inputs to a neuron.
 
... not to mention neuron-glia interactions, calcium spikes, multiple synapse types, plasticity, gap junctions... plus all the complex machinery that other cells in the body have (nucleus, mitochondria etc).

It can be very useful when modelling some phenomena to abstract neurons down to very simple models (even 2-dimensional simplifications of the Hodgkin Huxley equations can exhibit many properties mentioned above like resonating, integrating, sub-threshold oscillations, bursting, see e.g. http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Adaptive_exponential_integrate-and-fire_model ), but real biological neurons are a lot more complex than these simplifications.
 
I would say synapses, dendrites, or gap junctions are more for network considerations.

But yeah, you can add ligand gated channels and genetic expression dynamics to make things more complicated, or even add more types of ion current like a persistent sodium channel.

The 2D models aren't able to truly burst except for in very specific parameter regions that produce a "homoclinic orbit". Other than that, bursting requires three dimensions, as far as I know.
 
Pythagorean said:
I would say synapses, dendrites, or gap junctions are more for network considerations.
Indeed (perhaps not dendrites), but I guess my point was that even if each neuron is simple, they can be connected together in different ways with complex synapse types, meaning that it's not necessarily just like connecting together billions of transistors.

The 2D models aren't able to truly burst except for in very specific parameter regions that produce a "homoclinic orbit". Other than that, bursting requires three dimensions, as far as I know.
I'm far from an expert on the mathematics of bursting (currently brushing up a bit here ;) ) - I'm not sure what you mean by 'true' bursting...
 
Basically, the neuron makes a bunch of oscillations before returning to the resting potential (in the scholarpedia article, notice between eac spike in the burst, the neuron doesn't return to the rest potential.

This is only possible with a third dimension, as in 2D the trajectories would intersect (which can't happen in deterministic systems as differential equations model them)

An exception to this is the homoclinic orbit, where trajectories come into an equilibrium point on a stable manifold and immediately leave via the unstable manifold, giving a similar appearance to an intersection.

If you look up homoclinic orbit you may see what I mean. Am on the phone now so linking is a pain. We can develop this more later though if you have any questions.
 
Pythagorean said:
Basically, the neuron makes a bunch of oscillations before returning to the resting potential (in the scholarpedia article, notice between eac spike in the burst, the neuron doesn't return to the rest potential.

This is only possible with a third dimension, as in 2D the trajectories would intersect (which can't happen in deterministic systems as differential equations model them)

An exception to this is the homoclinic orbit, where trajectories come into an equilibrium point on a stable manifold and immediately leave via the unstable manifold, giving a similar appearance to an intersection.

If you look up homoclinic orbit you may see what I mean. Am on the phone now so linking is a pain. We can develop this more later though if you have any questions.

Ah I see what you mean. Thanks for the explanation :)
 

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